(9-021b) Water Mill and A New Windmill As Exclusive Buildings + Tweaks

[Yngwie]

Problems:

• Wells and Water Mills being mutually exclusive makes little sense
• Windmills unlocked in late Renaissance is a bit anachronistic
• The fact that cities without access to rivers being able to develop faster than river cities is counter logical
• Wells are too strong compared to other building of same line
• Water Mills and Windmills were used for the same purposes but have almost no overlaps in-game.
• Bath require Fresh water while they historically worked perfectly with Aqueducts.
• Elephant Camp not a Circus replacement (which provide Ivory bonus) is weird.

Justification and Proposal logic:

1) These changes are based on existing order of Buildings in Cities without river (and therefore without current Water Mill): Well -> Workshop -> Windmill. Therefore, proposed changes have relatively small impact on existing balance.
2) About Bath changes: yes, freshwater reqirements leads to strategic choices but even without it on Bath, freshwater Cities have better farms, and crazy late-game boost from cheap "Hydroelectric power plants". If we want to emphasize how river Cities were (obviously) better than non-river Cities we need to focus on river-tile yields, not on building restriction because current limitation only leads to frustration.
3) Elaphant Camp suits better to Circus because of bonus yields on Ivory.

Step 1: Nerf Well and make it available everywhere and not mutually exclusive with Water Mill
Step 2: Swap the name and art of Workshop and Windmill in tech tree. Now Windmill have traits of Workshop and vice versa.
Step 3: Move new Windmill to Machinery.
Step 4: Change current Water Mill to be identical to new Windmill. Move it to Engineering. Make Water Mill and Windmill mutually exclusive. (If it still not clear, imaging that Water Mill became mutually exclusive to Workshop and then Workshop got renamed to Windmill)
Step 5: Add little thematical and balance adjustments (Table #1)
Step 6: Adjust UB to follow the changes (Table #2) Note: the main aim for changes in UB is just to make them suits to new base building. Changes not aimed to conflict with special dedicated proposals and therefore can coexist with them.
Step 7: change Bath requirement from Fresh water to Aqueduct.

Spoiler Table #1 - Basic building changes :

Name	Current effects	New effects	Notes
Well	Prerequisite Technologies: Mining Cost: 65 Maintenance: 1 Food: +1 Production: +2 Each Population in City: +0.2 City must not be on a River City City must not have the following Buildings: Water Mill	Prerequisite Technologies: Mining Cost: 65 Maintenance: 1 Food: +1 Production: +1 Each Population in City: +0.2	Reduced base Production by 1 for balance reasons.
Water Mill	Prerequisite Technologies: Masonry Cost: 150 Maintenance: 1 Food: +2 Production: +3 Each Population in City: +0.25 City must be on a River City must not have the following Buildings: Well	Prerequisite Technologies: Engineering Cost: 200 Maintenance: 1 Production: +1 Engineer Slots: 1 Each Population in City: +0.25 +1 to Granary +1 to Forest +4 to Internal Trade Routes from this City Allows Production Internal Trade Routes from City Division of Labor: +3% +3% City must be on a River City must not have the following Buildings: Windmill	Reduced base Production by 1 due to earlier unlock + due to retaining +1 Food bonus on Granary
Windmill	Prerequisite Technologies: Economics Cost: 600 Maintenance: 4 Production: +3 Engineer Slots: 1 +15% Production for Non-Wonder Buildings +1 to Granary +1 to Grocer +2 +2 to Marsh +2 +2 to Lake Tiles Division of Labor: +3% +3%	Prerequisite Technologies: Machinery Cost: 350 Maintenance: 1 Production: +1 Engineer Slots: 1 Each Population in City: +0.25 +1 to Granary +1 to Forest +4 to Internal Trade Routes from this City Allows Production Internal Trade Routes from City Division of Labor: +3% +3% City must not be on a River City must not have the following Buildings: Water Mill	Reduced base Production by 1 due to earlier unlock + due to retaining +1 Food bonus on Granary Maintenance is lower because non-river Cities already punished by later unlock and worser farms
Workshop	Prerequisite Technologies: Civil Service Cost: 350 Automatically built when Founding City if the game starts in Industrial Era or later Maintenance: 2 Production: +2 Each Population in City: +0.25 Engineer Slots: 1 +1 to Forest +4 to Internal Trade Routes from this City Allows Production Internal Trade Routes from City Division of Labor: +3% +3% Entrepreneurship: +1 Happiness Required Buildings: Forge Leads to Buildings: Factory Steam Mill	Prerequisite Technologies: Economics Cost: 600 Maintenance: 4 Production: +4 Engineer Slots: 1 +15% Production for Non-Wonder Buildings +2 +2 to Marsh +2 +2 to Lake Tiles Division of Labor: +3% +3% Entrepreneurship: +1 Happiness Required Buildings: Forge Leads to Buildings: Factory Steam Mill	Bonus on Granary moved to Water Mill/Windmill. Bonus on Grocer changed to +1 base Production on building itself.
Bath	Require Fresh Water	Require Aqueduct	How it should be historically.

Spoiler Table #2 Changes to related UB :

Name	Current effect	Proposed effect	Notes
Buffalo Pound	Shoshone Unique Well Prerequisite Technologies: Trapping Cost: 65 Maintenance: 1 Food: +1 Production: +2 Each Population in City: +0.2 Each Tile owned by City: +1/6 +1/6	Shoshone Unique Well Prerequisite Technologies: Trapping Cost: 65 Maintenance: 1 Food: +1 Production: +1 Each Population in City: +0.2 Each Tile owned by City: +1/6 +1/6	Same -1 Production as in a basic building
Nilometer	Egyptian Unique Water Mill Prerequisite Technologies: Masonry Cost: 150 Maintenance: 1 Food: +3 Production: +3 Culture: +2 Each Population in City: +0.4 +10% during Golden Age	Egyptian Unique Water Mill Prerequisite Technologies: Engineering Cost: 200 Maintenance: 1 Production: +1 Culture: +2 Engineer Slots: 1 Each Population in City: +0.4 +10% during Golden Age +2 to Granary +1 to Forest +4 to Internal Trade Routes from this City Allows Production Internal Trade Routes from City Division of Labor: +3% +3%	Follow the Water Mill changes. Gain new tech unlock and new basic traits. Now Egypt cannot construct Windmills. Initial bonus +1 Food added to bonus on Granary.
Elephant Camp	Siamese Unique Workshop Prerequisite Technologies: Civil Service Cost: 350 Automatically built when Founding City if the game starts in Industrial Era or later Maintenance: 2 Production: +3 Culture: +2 Faith: +1 Engineer Slots: 1 +1 to Forest +1 to Lumber Mill +4 to Internal Trade Routes from this City Allows Production Internal Trade Routes from City Each Population in City: +0.25 Each unit of Strategic Resources connected to allied City-States: +1/2 +1/2 Division of Labor: +3% +3% Entrepreneurship: +1 Happiness Required Buildings: Forge	Siamese Unique Circus Prerequisite Technologies: Physics Destroyed on Conquest Cost: 300 Maintenance: 2 Happiness: 1 Culture: +2 Production: +1 Faith: +1 +1 to Lumber Mill -1 Unhappiness from Boredom +3 to Ivory Each unit of Strategic Resources connected to allied City-States: +1/2 +1/2 On Completion: +100 On Completion: +10 Turns of "We Love the King Day" Required Buildings: Arena	Changed the basic building to Circus (which suits better), therefore basic stats changed. All secondary stats of UB retained.
Brewhouse	German Unique Windmill Prerequisite Technologies: Economics Cost: 600 Maintenance: 4 Production: +3 Culture: +3 Engineer Slots: 1 +15% Production for Non-Wonder Buildings +1 +1 to Granary +1 +1 to Grocer +1 +1 to Wheat +1 +1 to Maize +1 +1 to Rice +2 +2 to Marsh +2 +2 to Lake Tiles When adopting a Policy: +10 , scaling with Era When a Unit is gifted to a City-State: +10 , scaling with Era +1/9 Happiness in Capital for every Policy adopted Division of Labor: +3% +3%	German Unique Workshop Prerequisite Technologies: Economics Cost: 600 Maintenance: 4 Production: +4 Culture: +4 Engineer Slots: 1 +15% Production for Non-Wonder Buildings +1 +1 to Wheat +1 +1 to Maize +1 +1 to Rice +2 +2 to Marsh +2 +2 to Lake Tiles When adopting a Policy: +10 , scaling with Era When a Unit is gifted to a City-State: +10 , scaling with Era +1/9 Happiness in Capital for every Policy adopted Division of Labor: +3% +3% Entrepreneurship: +1 Happiness	Base building changed due to Workshop/Windmill swap Bonus on Grocer consumed into flat stats as in new base building. Granary bonus moved to Water Mill/Windmill, therefore not present. Added possible Entrepreneurship bonus.

Results:

• Wells available everywhere and not so OP – nice and accurate.
• Water Mill and Windmill are mutually exclusive because they do the same work.
• River Cities have upper hand for a period of time – historically accurate.
• Non-river Cities will get the same yields but a bit later – no more bad feelings from loosed yields.
• Bathes now available in every City with Aqueduct. Less frustration from expansion.
• Elephant Camp now replace Circus – guess, it should be here.

---

Counterproposal to

B

[Database] Thread '(9-NS) Change Well and Watermill requirements'

Jan 1, 2026

Motivation:
Freshwater requirements don't really make sense strategically or thematically. For the production cost, wells are much better than watermills in almost every case.

Proposal:
Allow wells to be built in any city
Nilometer becomes a unique well replacement
Delete watermills

• Bromar1
• Replies: 15
• Forum: Failed Proposals

 

[FPXI]

This is...well thought out. I support this one over the other ideas being workshopped.

 

[Brackenspore]

Step 2: Swap the name and art of Workshop and Windmill in tech tree. Now Windmill have traits of Workshop and vice versa.
Step 3: Move new Windmill to Chivalry. Why? It would be good Easter Egg and nice reference to Miguel de Cervantes. Plus, it should be not far away from Water Mill.

I don't want to be a bore, but this particular part of your enormous proposal is SUCCESSFUL primarily because Windmill technology was invented in eastern Persia in the 7th-9th centuries (it's the first vertical in the Medieval tech tree, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windmill). It's utter nonsense to see Windmills at the end of the Renaissance (the current situation, as of the release of Civilization 5)!

As for the Workshops. If I were to assume the role of a historian-nerd again, the workshops would have to be in the Ancient or, at the very least, Classical era. But certainly not in the late Renaissance. In general, the name Workshop itself is very vague (and therefore unfortunate). What history tells us about the Renaissance: "Workshops became highly influential in arts during the Renaissance. Many great artists, such as Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo, operated their own workshops, which were places where they trained apprentices and collaborators. These workshops were where masterpieces like sculptures, paintings and architectural designs were brought to life"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workshop).

Perhaps then it would be worth renaming the Workshops to Art Workshops? True, then in this case the bonus to Marshes and Lakes would look strange for such a name. Although, if by the word Art we also mean landscape design, then it will roughly correspond (although a bonus to culture instead of gold for Lakes and Swamps seems more appropriate in this case). Although, this bonus also seems odd for the name "Workshop"! Perhaps it would be worthwhile to come up with a name that is not related to the workshop.

Let's turn to history again. "The Italian Renaissance inspired a revolution in private gardening (Private Garden - This is the exact name for the Garden building accessible after Theology). Renaissance private gardens were full of scenes from ancient mythology and other learned allusions. Water during this time was especially symbolic: it was associated with fertility and the abundance of nature. The first public gardens (or Park) were built by the Spanish Crown in the 16th century, in Europe and the Americas" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gardening). So, Public Garden (or Park) is the name that might suit you! This name will be fully consistent with all the bonuses.

 

[Bysonte]

After seeing some proposals I think at this point we should just remove the well, make the watermill buildable in all cities and give it a food/production bonus if built on a river.

 

[FPXI]

I don't want to be a bore, but this particular part of your enormous proposal is SUCCESSFUL primarily because Windmill technology was invented in eastern Persia in the 7th-9th centuries (it's the first vertical in the Medieval tech tree, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windmill). It's utter nonsense to see Windmills at the end of the Renaissance (the current situation, as of the release of Civilization 5)!

As for the Workshops. If I were to assume the role of a historian-nerd again, the workshops would have to be in the Ancient or, at the very least, Classical era. But certainly not in the late Renaissance. In general, the name Workshop itself is very vague (and therefore unfortunate). What history tells us about the Renaissance: "Workshops became highly influential in arts during the Renaissance. Many great artists, such as Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo, operated their own workshops, which were places where they trained apprentices and collaborators. These workshops were where masterpieces like sculptures, paintings and architectural designs were brought to life"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workshop).

Perhaps then it would be worth renaming the Workshops to Art Workshops? True, then in this case the bonus to Marshes and Lakes would look strange for such a name. Although, if by the word Art we also mean landscape design, then it will roughly correspond (although a bonus to culture instead of gold for Lakes and Swamps seems more appropriate in this case). Although, this bonus also seems odd for the name "Workshop"! Perhaps it would be worthwhile to come up with a name that is not related to the workshop.

Let's turn to history again. "The Italian Renaissance inspired a revolution in private gardening (Private Garden - This is the exact name for the Garden building accessible after Theology). Renaissance private gardens were full of scenes from ancient mythology and other learned allusions. Water during this time was especially symbolic: it was associated with fertility and the abundance of nature. The first public gardens (or Park) were built by the Spanish Crown in the 16th century, in Europe and the Americas" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gardening). So, Public Garden (or Park) is the name that might suit you! This name will be fully consistent with all the bonuses.

Amusingly, the word we really want here is Manufactory. Another swap may be in order...

 

[Brackenspore]

Amusingly, the word we really want here is Manufactory. Another swap may be in order...

By the way, that's a very good point. If the name Workshop were changed to Manufactory (Improvement of the Great Engineer), then the accuracy would be super-high (Windmill swaps places with the Workshop + Workshop swaps names with the Manufactory). Because it's just as stupid to see Manufactories in the Ancient era. I want to believe that the author of this topic will read everything we have written and make some additions to his proposal.

 

[redrum68]

The fact that cities without access to rivers being able to develop faster than river cities is counter logical

Uh river cities have huge advantages over non-river cities throughout most of history. Look at the location of major city locations especially in early ages. This is completely false.

2) About Bath changes: yes, freshwater reqirements leads to strategic choices but even without it on Bath, freshwater Cities have better farms, and crazy late-game boost from cheap "Hydroelectric power plants". If we want to emphasize how river Cities were (obviously) better than non-river Cities we need to focus on river-tile yields, not on building restriction because current limitation only leads to frustration.

If anything we should have more bonuses for river/lake cities not less. You realize you are promoting settling away from rivers so then you can farm them which makes no sense. Cities being on rivers is a huge advantage for proximity to fresh water and for transportation.

 

[redrum68]

After seeing some proposals I think at this point we should just remove the well, make the watermill buildable in all cities and give it a food/production bonus if built on a river.

Yeah this could be a good option. Making well buildable in all cities has a similar effect.

 

[FPXI]

Uh river cities have huge advantages over non-river cities throughout most of history. Look at the location of major city locations especially in early ages. This is completely false.

He means currently in the game. Well lets those cities develop faster than river cities in many cases.

 

[redrum68]

He means currently in the game. Well lets those cities develop faster than river cities in many cases.

Right and I'm saying they should have an advantage. Its good for the game and is historical.

 

[hokath]

Very interesting. This is similar to the Horse Mill concept that was discussed a little while ago.
The idea the buildings are identical but just at different unlocks is a very elegant simplification.

Criticism on the balance. While I take the point that

Windmill technology was invented in eastern Persia in the 7th-9th centuries

Chivalry is already a stacked tech in gameplay terms.
I think the correct place is Machinery, which also fits thematically (having the icon of a gear mechanism, even!).
It also opens the gap a bit more between River and non-River because, at the moment, the difference of 1 tech is very minor to go through all this effort.

 

[Stalker0]

Uh river cities have huge advantages over non-river cities throughout most of history. Look at the location of major city locations especially in early ages.

Which is....exactly what they said. They said that currently non-river cities develop quicker because they get a well much much earlier than river cities get a watermill. And that runs counter to how it should be logically.

 

[redrum68]

Which is....exactly what they said. They said that currently non-river cities develop quicker because they get a well much much earlier than river cities get a watermill. And that runs counter to how it should be logically.

Ah lol. I read it the opposite way. That being said I still think these changes are bad as while they address river cities not getting wells, they take away much of the river and lake city bonuses. It also feels like a shotgun proposal changing lots of things that could probably be separated up. Baths changes aren't really closely related to anything else here and is a terrible change.

 

[Yngwie]

Amended:
Proposed Windmill unlock changed from Chivalry to Machinery.

Manufactory/Workshop name swap proposed separately in (9-82).
@redrum68 perfect world proposed separately in (9-83)

 

[hokath]

While I admire the thoroughness, I think the title of the proposal could be a bit shorter
Maybe "Watermill and a new Windmill as exclusive buildings" or something like that
The well nerf is a relatively minor part

 

[Anarcomu]

I would make a single, little change :

• Your proposed watermill and new windmill have one small difference : the watermill is cheaper - costs 200 against 300 for the windmill.
• As such, I would change the windmill to simply need no water. This way, you can't make the mistake of building it on a riverside city, and it remove some clutter on the city production list.

Also, as I understand it, Egypt can no longer build windmill ? As their UB no longer needs river. I think it is unclear.
You said "Now Egypt cannot construct Windmills instead of Wells", did you meant "instead of Nilometer" ? You could simply drop the last part : "Now Egypt cannot construct Windmills."
Or make the Nilometer a replacement of both Watermill and Windmill.

 

[Yngwie]

Amended:
Production Cost of a new Windmill increased from 300 to 350 to suit the Macninery technology (equal to current Workshop)
Added "City must not be on a River" requirement to a new Windmill
Egypt/Nilometer commentary corrected as suggested by @Anarcomu

 

[hokath]

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