(9-027) Rename "Majesty" Policy To "Hydraulic Despotism"

[Brackenspore]

Motivation

"Majesty" is too vague a word to describe a Social Policy. It's more of a personality trait. I understand the idea was to reflect the monarch's personality trait, since this tree is related to the Monarchy. But that's more appropriate for a title than a Social Policy. In my opinion (I might be wrong), social policies are laws, rules, social conventions, conceptions and norms. Policies embody a great deal of knowledge of how to do things in society and have been described as the social science equivalent of theories in the natural sciences.

Majesty (Tradition) effects

Spoiler :

Proposal

Rename "Majesty" Policy to "Hydraulic Despotism".

Rationale (info from wiki, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_empire). This social structure was characteristic of many ancient monarchies (Tradition) and was not characteristic of states like Rome and Greece (these states gravitate toward the branches of Authority, Progress). Furthermore, the essence of this social structure correlates with the effects (food) that policy produces.

New historical info (instead of Majesty info):

Spoiler :

A hydraulic despotism is a social or government structure which maintains power through control over water. It arises through an ecological need for flood control and irrigation, which requires central coordination and a specialized bureaucracy. The term was promoted by Karl August Wittfogel's book Oriental Despotism: A Comparative Study of Total Power (1957).[NEWLINE][NEWLINE]Often associated with these terms and concepts is the notion of a water dynasty. This body is a political structure which is commonly characterized by a system of hierarchy and control often based on class or caste. Power, both over resources (food, water, energy) and a means of enforcement such as the military, is vital for the maintenance of control.[NEWLINE][NEWLINE]According to Wittfogel, most of the first civilizations in history, such as Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, China, India, Pre-Columbian Mexico and Peru, are believed to have been hydraulic empires. Most hydraulic empires existed in arid or desert regions, but imperial China also had some such characteristics, due to the exacting needs of rice cultivation.

 

[Chinag]

Feels weird to see the term "Hydraulic" outside of a mechanical/engineering field. Also kinda breaks the single word theme across the entire Ancient Era policy trees. I think it's best that policies are plausibly named by the people at the time rather than what current historians may call it. "Hydraulic Despotism" seems to be coined in 1957 by a historian.

Also based on the current Civilopedia entry, the current "Majesty" name is more based on it being a rank rather than a personality.

Majesty is an English word derived ultimately from the Latin maiestas, meaning greatness, and used as a style by many monarchs, usually kings or emperors. Where used, the style outranks [Royal] Highness. It has cognates in many other languages.

 

[Brackenspore]

Also kinda breaks the single word theme across the entire Ancient Era policy trees.

Is there any evidence that this is some kind of naming system and not just a coincidence? I'd be curious to see. (And even if there is some kind of system, it is incredibly stupid...)

I think it's best that policies are plausibly named by the people at the time rather than what current historians may call it.

We have a policy of Sovereignty in Tradition. The term arises from the unattested Vulgar Latin *superanus (itself a derived form of Latin super – "over") meaning "chief", "ruler". Its spelling, which has varied since the word's first appearance in English in the 14th century, was influenced by the English word "reign". Is the 14th century the ancient world?

Liberty, Equality, Fraternity (Progress policies) - These are simply words taken from the motto of France, spoken in 1790.

 

[hokath]

I agree with the sentiment.
Hydraulic Despotism sound metal as f*ck, lol.
Sounds too niche as well.
The idea that the ruler has control over food, or uses food politically, fits, though.
In my changes I have this shuffle

• Sovereignty renamed to Ceremony
• Ceremony renamed Mysticism
• Royal Astrologer renamed to Astrologer's Sanctum
• State Treasury renamed to Treasure Hoard
• Majesty renamed to Bounty

Perhaps "Bounty" is better?
This is the text I chose

'Meaning ''Something that is given generously'', feasts and festivals are a universal feature of centralized culture. Much of the authority of the state, from early history to today, lies in the ability to provide for its citizens. A ruler that cannot secure enough food for their people to eat will not remain a ruler for long.'

 

[Legen]

Ancient policies in VP have been very abstract, almost like evoking values for a society. They don't specify the means through which political control is achieved.

Authority has a somewhat similar naming to Tradition, with names like Honor, Militarism and Dominance. And Progress, with the Liberty - Equality - Fraternity trio.

 

[Brackenspore]

Ancient policies in VP have been very abstract, almost like evoking values for a society. They don't specify the means through which political control is achieved.

And I don't really understand why... Because ancient states were backward? These are stereotypes and the illiteracy of modern people (perhaps this is the reason for the existence of such names here). In fact, many (if not all, since modern theorists have mostly borrowed ancient concepts and adapted them to modern times) concepts and specific mechanisms for achieving political control were devised in ancient times. Besides, we have social policies (concrete), not social ideals (abstract). So, we should strive to replace vague terms with more specific ones.

 

[Brackenspore]

I agree with the sentiment.
Hydraulic Despotism sound metal as f*ck, lol.

I'm really curious to know what it is about the word ''hydraulic'' (= water) that scares people? In that article the synonym "water" (Water Dynasty) is used - Water Despotism. It may be a brave (or terrifying?) new world for many of us, but the social sciences often use terms from the natural and technical sciences. And Hydraulic Despotism is that case.

 

[Legen]

And I don't really understand why... Because ancient states were backward?

Probably to be more general or abstract. Vanilla civ 5 had names that more closely mirrored societal organization, like Aristocracy (Tradition), Republic (Liberty/Progress) and Military Caste (Honor/Authority). You can check the original names here: https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_social_policies_in_Civ5

Personally, I prefer the vanilla names. I'm not particularly invested in changing names, though.

Vanilla had "Landed Elite" as one of Tradition's policies, which is very close to what the Majesty policy portraits. If you want, you could have Majesty renamed for this one.

 

[Brackenspore]

Probably to be more general or abstract. Vanilla civ 5 had names that more closely mirrored societal organization, like Aristocracy (Tradition), Republic (Liberty/Progress) and Military Caste (Honor/Authority). You can check the original names here: https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_social_policies_in_Civ5

Personally, I prefer the vanilla names. I'm not particularly invested in changing names, though.

Vanilla had "Landed Elite" as one of Tradition's policies, which is very close to what the Majesty policy portraits. If you want, you could have Majesty renamed for this one.

That's right, in vanilla Civilization, social policies are concrete, while in VP - abstract. Moreover, they're only abstract in the ancient branches... And I haven't yet seen any concrete justification for this. So far, it looks like some mod developer 15+ years ago just wanted to... Therefore, I would like to try to change something in this direction. Naming simply has nothing to do with balance, so most people don't care about it at all, and they might not even consider that a certain name is illogical or ahistorical.

 

[FPXI]

I think I'd prefer "Hydraulic Kingship" or 'Hydraulic Society". Hydraulic Despotism sounds a little too much like how I teach it to my undergrads--too stayed and textbook. But honestly, no opinion.

 

[Brackenspore]

I actually have a question-proposal for the current developers. In naming-related proposals, allow multiple variants for new names.

The thing is, most authors (I've seen other threads related to renaming, and they have similar cases) want to get rid of an Old Name (which they consider unsuccessful). This is more important to them than any specific New Name. An author may be satisfied with several New Name variants. The main thing is that the Old Name disappears. In threads proposing game balance changes, one person cannot propose multiple different options (because this contradicts the very logic of such changes: one person cannot simultaneously propose increasing the culture bonus from Monuments by 1 point and by 2 points).

According to the Congress rules, only one option can be proposed. But this option may not be liked by voters. And it turns out that the proponent will fail to achieve their primary goal (getting rid of the old name) not because voters are FOR the old name, but because they are AGAINST a specific new name, of which there is only one (due to the current rules of Congress). Try to understand this subtle point.

And all of this is easily implemented. For example:
Variant 1
Variant 2
Variant 3
Variant X
Variant "Do Not Change"
Voters vote for the variants they like. If the total number of votes for variants 1-X exceeds the number of votes for the "Do Not Change" variant, then the Old Name is considered removed from the game. And a New one is selected based on the same voting results. The variant with the most votes becomes the New Name.

For example, in this particular thread, I was considering another possible new name: Polygyny (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygyny). It's also very suitable for Tradition, for monarchies, and for the effects that politics produces. It's even just one word (facepalm)! But I can't propose it due to Congress rules. It may be worth relaxing the rules for proposals related to renaming.

 

[Legen]

I think "Hydraulic Despotism" suffers from being a jargon, instead of an intuitive or broadly understood concept. It would clash even with the Vanilla naming, which has relatively intuitive names.

 

[Brackenspore]

I think "Hydraulic Despotism" suffers from being a jargon, instead of an intuitive or broadly understood concept. It would clash even with the Vanilla naming, which has relatively intuitive names.

The article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_empire) I cited contains many synonyms: hydraulic empire, hydraulic despotism, hydraulic society, hydraulic civilization, water monopoly empire, water dynasty. Unfortunately, due to strict rules, I can't propose them all. The cool thing is, any of these names would be fine with me! The only one I don't like is Majesty. So, due to the current rules, I'll have to propose each of these names at every new Congress if Hydraulic Despotism isn't popular. And I think this situation is a bit odd (or even silly) for proposals that aren't related to balance changes.

 

[hokath]

But I can't propose it due to Congress rules. It may be worth relaxing the rules for proposals related to renaming.

The MAGI are actually voting on lifting this rule for the next congress right now.
For now, if people like a different name, they can counterpropose it.
I will counter you now with my suggestion above

But this part

If the total number of votes for variants 1-X exceeds the number of votes for the "Do Not Change" variant, then the Old Name is considered removed from the game.

is not a correct interpretation. It suggests people who didn't vote for one of the options would be happy with it passing instead of "no", but that's not what they indicated in their ballot.

 

[Brackenspore]

• Majesty renamed to Bounty

Perhaps "Bounty" is better?
This is the text I chose

Bounty could also be added. We could even collect various possible options for a potential new name in this thread (while the proposal phase is ongoing). And during the voting phase, all these options would be presented, along with the option to keep the old name. I've described this in detail above. In general, I believe the current Congress rules are not entirely suitable for renaming proposals. As the author of this proposal, I'm not clinging to my own version of the new name; the main thing for me is that the old one disappears! I am sure that those who created this Congress did not even imagine that such a turn of events could happen.

 

[azum4roll]

And all of this is easily implemented. For example:
Variant 1
Variant 2
Variant 3
Variant X
Variant "Do Not Change"
Voters vote for the variants they like. If the total number of votes for variants 1-X exceeds the number of votes for the "Do Not Change" variant, then the Old Name is considered removed from the game. And a New one is selected based on the same voting results. The variant with the most votes becomes the New Name.

In an extreme case, someone could propose 300 names and have everyone go through all of them.

 

[Brackenspore]

In an extreme case, someone could propose 300 names and have everyone go through all of them.

In reality, even a hypothetical 300 names doesn't seem all that terrifying. But imagining 300 ideas for balancing something—that's truly terrifying. Clearly, everything should be in moderation. For example, allowing the author of the proposal to suggest up to 10 new name variants wouldn't be so bad. Naturally, such liberalism should only apply to proposals related to renaming or replacing icons, or anything that isn't related to balance (complex topics).

 

[redrum68]

In an extreme case, someone could propose 300 names and have everyone go through all of them.

So just put a reasonable limit of say 3 or 5 then. I don't think anyone wants to propose or vote on 300 but allowing a proposal to have a few reasonable options allows the community to vote on what they think is best.

 

[paul_soryu]

It may be a brave (or terrifying?) new world for many of us

Some would say it's a brave new word...

I think "Water Monopoly" (without "empire") sounds the best, it's simple and doesn't sound strange. The core subject is total control over water resource, so dynasty/empire/civilization/society/despotism part doesn't matter, it can be any of that.

 

[azum4roll]

"You control over 50% of the World's Water, and therefore have a Global Monopoly!"