(9-029) Mongolia Nerfs

[redrum68]

Motivation
Mongols are probably the strongest civ when played by humans (the AI is terrible as they don't know to focus on building skirmishers) and their UA with double attack skirmishers is particularly problematic especially when combined with Ordos full movement restore. It allows them to do an incredible amount of damage while often not being exposed to any significant counter attack. The tribute portion of their UA is also very strong and generates Food/Culture/Faith which don't really seem that aligned with how Mongolia is meant to be played early game.

Approach:

• Change their UA to give logistics instead of unique double attack promo to bring down the damage that they output a bit especially early game (also prevents triple attack skirmishers). This still makes them have pretty strong skirmisher units which also benefit from double XP from attacking twice to generate more Khans.
• Change UA tribute bonus to give just bonus production/science instead of all yields as they aren't meant to be an early food/culture/faith civ and the total yields is too high.
• Change Ordo to either just consume no moves when traveled across or if not possible give +1 move once per turn per unit instead of full movement refresh as its not meant to be so strong as the Khan itself is very strong.

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Proposal Summary

• UA: Replace unique double attack promotion with Logistics* (Reduces the insane damage output while still making them strong and allowing them to generate lots of Khans)
• UA: Tribute yields change to 25% Production/Science from 20% All Yields (Focuses the yields and reduces overall amount)
• Ordo: Full movement refresh changed to "consume no moves when traveled across" or if not possible then "+1 move once per turn per unit" (Provides some additional mobility but not the crazy full movement restore)

* Logistics - +1 attack, -30% Ranged Combat Strength while attacking. Requires Accuracy III.

Current UA: Mongol Terror

• Skirmisher Units have an extra Attack.
• Gain All Yields equal to 20% of the Gold from bullying City-States.

Proposed UA: Mongol Terror (Changes in Bold)

• Skirmisher Units start with Logistics.
• Gain Production/Science equal to 25% of the Gold from bullying City-States.

Current Ordo

• Claims adjacent tiles
• +50% defensive strength
• "regain all movement points when moving onto this tile"
• Counts as Fortification and Canal

Proposed Ordo (Changes in Bold)

• Claims adjacent tiles
• +50% defensive strength
• "regain all movement points when moving onto this tile"
• Units consume no moves when traveling across
• Counts as Fortification and Canal

 

[Chinag]

For reference, here is the current Logistics promotion:

Logistics - +1 attack, -30% Ranged Combat Strength while attacking. Requires Accuracy III.

I do agree with these changes, as both extra attack on skirmishers and tribute yields are too strong in player hands.

Do we have to stick around with Mongol UA having a tribute mechanic? Everything in their kit is pure Authority it feels like. Good reflection of the Mongol's rapid expansion, but none of their cultural impact on the world.

 

[Bromar1]

For reference, here is the current Logistics promotion:

I think you missed some details. Doesn't logistics reduce combat strength?

 

[Chinag]

Sorry, I pressed CTRL+Enter and it sent my message early

 

[hokath]

We can maybe discuss the tribute part separate to the logistics part.
Personally I agree that the Mongolians are getting a bit of a bashing in the representation department.
My counter would be
-- UA: No longer receives extra Yields from Tribute
Issue here with very early Faith makes them a Religious civ, but on discussion people felt they shouldn't be, so here we are.
-- UA: Gain +1 Food, Culture, Border Growth, and GG Point from Horses, Stables, and Agribusinesses
Other than militaristically, significant Horse culture of Mongolia was not represented (which remains to the present day)
I tried many UA options. This one I liked because of the above flavor, and because GG points mean more Ordo, and Ordo are great!
-- UA: Name changed to "Khiimori", which means Wind Horse: an east Asian concept equivalent to the soul
-- UB: Ger replaced (reimagined) as the Tuvan Ail
Replaces the Musicians' Guild (so limit 3)
+2 Food, Culture, Border Growth, and GG Points from Musicians and Pastures in the City
+3 Culture, Faith, and Tourism for every Mountain within the workable tiles
+1 Food and Tourism to nearby Grassland
+1 Production and Faith to nearby Plains
"Acquire" the perfect terrain to leverage this unique building's power bonuses!

I don't really want to wade in on the Logistics part because I know Azum has a counterproposal there that's very different

 

[redrum68]

We can maybe discuss the tribute part separate to the logistics part.
Personally I agree that the Mongolians are getting a bit of a bashing in the representation department.
My counter would be
-- UA: No longer receives extra Yields from Tribute
Issue here with very early Faith makes them a Religious civ, but on discussion people felt they shouldn't be, so here we are.
-- UA: Gain +1 Food, Culture, Border Growth, and GG Point from Horses, Stables, and Agribusinesses
Other than militaristically, significant Horse culture of Mongolia was not represented (which remains to the present day)
I tried many UA options. This one I liked because of the above flavor, and because GG points mean more Ordo, and Ordo are great!
-- UA: Name changed to "Khiimori", which means Wind Horse: an east Asian concept equivalent to the soul
-- UB: Ger replaced (reimagined) as the Tuvan Ail
Replaces the Musicians' Guild (so limit 3)
+2 Food, Culture, Border Growth, and GG Points from Musicians and Pastures in the City
+3 Culture, Faith, and Tourism for every Mountain within the workable tiles
+1 Food and Tourism to nearby Grassland
+1 Production and Faith to nearby Plains
"Acquire" the perfect terrain to leverage this unique building's power bonuses!

I don't really want to wade in on the Logistics part because I know Azum has a counterproposal there that's very different

I think that is a reasonable approach though a much more significant change. My only issue is on:
"UA: Gain +1 Food, Culture, Border Growth, and GG Point from Horses, Stables, and Agribusinesses" - I wouldn't include horses there because Mongolia's power is already so tied to horses with its skirmisher UA and UU. They don't need buffed anymore on starts with lots of horses.

 

[pineappledan]

Good reflection of the Mongol's rapid expansion, but none of their cultural impact on the world.

Personally I agree that the Mongolians are getting a bit of a bashing in the representation department.

Just want to pipe up that if there is a single civ that I could see not having a single point of culture in its kit, it would be the mongols.
The Mongols ruled a gigantic empire for nearly a century and in that time they created no new technologies and wrote 1 book that they kept a secret from everyone else and wasn't revealed to the world until the 1900s.
On the other hand they burned down the house of wisdom and wiped several centers of arts and culture off the map. I'm not going to suggest that they were bereft of culture, but not every civ needs to have that 1 yield in their kit. On the other hand, as the greatest destroyers of culture the world has ever seen, the Mongols would be a prime candidate for the honor of being a 0 civ.

 

[Chinag]

I think that is a reasonable approach though a much more significant change. My only issue is on:
"UA: Gain +1 Food, Culture, Border Growth, and GG Point from Horses, Stables, and Agribusinesses" - I wouldn't include horses there because Mongolia's power is already so tied to horses with its skirmisher UA and UU. They don't need buffed anymore on starts with lots of horses.

There's the other side of the coin where you get a start with minimal horses so that part of the UA wouldn't affect you. I don't think other Civ UA are that specific about their eco bonus?

Just want to pipe up that if there is a single civ that I could see not having a single point of culture in its kit, it would be the mongols.
The Mongols ruled a gigantic empire for nearly a century and in that time they created no new technologies and wrote 1 book that they kept a secret from everyone else and wasn't revealed to the world until the 1900s.
On the other hand they burned down the house of wisdom and wiped several centers of arts and culture off the map. I'm not going to suggest that they were bereft of culture, but not every civ needs to have that 1 yield in their kit. On the other hand, as the greatest destroyers of culture the world has ever seen, the Mongols would be a prime candidate for the honor of being a 0 civ.

IMO I feel like the Huns kinda fill those shoes too? Most knowledge comes from their enemy who wrote about them (so quite negative), and their empire was short-lived compared to the Mongols, which lasted more generations so their policies affected their conquered regions more. I'm not denying the Mongolian brutal warfare, but I think Huns deserves the more "pure warfare" quirkiness of the game - That's why they had that "stolen city names" gimmick afterall!

 

[pineappledan]

We have pretty clear evidence at this point that the Huns were politically and culturally continuous with the Hepthalites and Xiongnu, so Hunnic imperial power endured to more than 1000 years in 1 form or another. Also they weren't so much of a clear negative in the cultural domain as the Mongols were. The Mongols literally burned down libraries; we have no equivalent to that with the Huns.

 

[redrum68]

There's the other side of the coin where you get a start with minimal horses so that part of the UA wouldn't affect you. I don't think other Civ UA are that specific about their eco bonus?

Yeah, exactly. Giving bonus yields on horses are just making the easy starts easier and the hard starts harder. Also having such significant direct yields on resources can cause imbalance early game as in this case you could get extra early culture as soon as you reveal horses.

 

[FPXI]

Good change and I like it better than any of the proposed alternatives thus far. I'd support as is, but I also kinda love how obviously powerful the Ordo is and would rather it not be nerfed.

 

[pineappledan]

I will be not shocked at all if changing Mongols to logistics blows up in your faces.

Giving all their skirmishers a -20% or -30% RCS malus (depending on if this proposal passes) with no line promotions to cushion the malus will make the skirmishers' bee sting attacks do less than nothing. It will likely result in a situation where Mongols start feeding the enemy XP with their ranged attacks, which the enemy can shrug off.

 

[redrum68]

I will be not shocked at all if changing Mongols to logistics blows up in your faces.

Giving all their skirmishers a -20% or -30% RCS malus (depending on if this proposal passes) with no line promotions to cushion the malus will make the skirmishers' bee sting attacks do less than nothing. It will likely result in a situation where Mongols start feeding the enemy XP with their ranged attacks, which the enemy can shrug off.

I think you're vastly underestimating the power of double attack and skirmishers. But if that proposal passes and its a nerf to logistics then we may need to alter this proposal a bit.

 

[FPXI]

I will be not shocked at all if changing Mongols to logistics blows up in your faces.

Giving all their skirmishers a -20% or -30% RCS malus (depending on if this proposal passes) with no line promotions to cushion the malus will make the skirmishers' bee sting attacks do less than nothing. It will likely result in a situation where Mongols start feeding the enemy XP with their ranged attacks, which the enemy can shrug off.

I don't think it's quite that bad. But also, I'd prefer they end up too weak than remain as strong as they are currently.

 

[azum4roll]

I will be not shocked at all if changing Mongols to logistics blows up in your faces.

Giving all their skirmishers a -20% or -30% RCS malus (depending on if this proposal passes) with no line promotions to cushion the malus will make the skirmishers' bee sting attacks do less than nothing. It will likely result in a situation where Mongols start feeding the enemy XP with their ranged attacks, which the enemy can shrug off.

You can already see this on upgraded Hwach'a (-30% logistics, -10% indirect fire, -10% range, -33% when attacking land units).

 

[redrum68]

You can already see this on upgraded Hwach'a (-30% logistics, -10% indirect fire, -10% range, -33% when attacking land units).

Yep and they are fine since you gotta have other 10% promos to get that. This would be way less than that since it doesn't have the siege promos.

 

[Diomedes_]

Food yields from bullying doesn't seem very thematic to me. Gold/Production would make more sense IMO. Mongols should have small but productive cities funded by stealing things from other players, not from having large domestic population and production.

 

[Legen]

Science from tribute does make sense, the Mongols were known for making really good use of the technologies of the civilizations they conquered against future foes. Especially Siege equipment.

 

[redrum68]

Food yields from bullying doesn't seem very thematic to me. Gold/Production would make more sense IMO. Mongols should have small but productive cities funded by stealing things from other players, not from having large domestic population and production.

Fair but tribute is already gold so I didn't think more gold was the best approach.

Science from tribute does make sense, the Mongols were known for making really good use of the technologies of the civilizations they conquered against future foes. Especially Siege equipment.

Maybe production/science would be better than food/production?

 

[redrum68]

Changed to production/science instead of food/production for tribute. Makes more sense for Mongolia.