(9-046) Greek Hoplite Nerf

[stormfallen]

Motivation: Hoplites are probably the strongest Ancient unit. They have +2 combat strength over Spearman, two very good free promotions, and are resource-free. Probably a bit much for how spammable they are until Medieval. The other unique Spearmen only have +1 strength and arguably weaker promotions (except maybe Immortals). Unity and Greece's UA allows Hoplites to gain considerable bonuses to combat strength at a time when many promotions aren't available yet. The Great General points also feel a bit random on a Civ with no other Great General synergy, and I'd assume they were just ported over from Companion Cavalry.

TL;DR: Rename Unity to Phalanx, remove base 10% and reduce adjacent scalar to 10%; remove Great Generals II.

Current (differences from Spearman underlined):
Cost: 70 / 150 🕊
Moves: 2
Strength: 14 (+2)
----------------
Free Promotions:

• Unity (+10% Combat Strength, +15% Combat Strength per Adjacent Owned Land Unit.)
• Great Generals II (+100% Great General Points from combat.)
• Formation I (+33% Combat Strength VS Mounted Units, +15% Combat Strength when defending in Open Terrain.)

Proposed (differences from current bolded, removals struckthrough):
Cost: 70

/ 150 🕊

Moves: 2

Strength: 14 (+2)
----------------
Free Promotions:

• Phalanx (+10%
  
  Combat Strength per Adjacent Owned Land Unit.)
• Great Generals II
• Formation I (+33%
  
  Combat Strength VS Mounted Units, +15%
  
  Combat Strength when defending in Open Terrain.)

 

[FPXI]

Honestly, I agree they need to come down a peg, but feel they're bland without the GG points. I think keep them in some capacity (either as is or the less good version). I like the promotion nerf though.

 

[azum4roll]

The Great Generals promotion was moved from Companion Cavalry.

 

[stormfallen]

The Great Generals promotion was moved from Companion Cavalry.

Technically copied and upgraded, as Companion Cavalry still have GG1.

 

[redrum68]

I generally agree with the direction here and don't see any need for the Great Generals promotion in Greece's kit.

I would try to keep the 15% on adj units though as that is their main unique promo. Maybe dropping their CS by -1 to 13 but keeping the adjacency bonus at 15%.

 

[azum4roll]

I do want to drop the base +10% CS. That's bloat.

 

[Alpakinator]

Imo doing your change except lowering adjacency bonus to 13%, not 10% would be best. I feel like 10% is a bit too unremarkable. I mean it's strong but not so crazy. It's fine if Hoplite will remain the strongest ancient era unit, but just not by such a wide margin as it is right now.

 

[hokath]

If you drop the 10% base, I feel like it should stay at 15% scaling? Early on when the balance is most affected, you wont actually have the numbers to surround many Hoplites anyway.
Phalanx name 10/10. *Civ II intensifies*

 

[FPXI]

Agreed. If the 10 flat is coming off then the 15% per adjacent should not be reduced.

 

[stormfallen]

Someone can feel free to counterpropose.

 

[drpepperftw]

What's wrong with Greece having one of the strongest ancient units? I think civs with historical power spikes should be extremely noticeable in game. Personally I buffed immortals a little since I think they should be able to hold their own vs hoplites but vs everyone else I think they are at a good place in the ancient era

 

[FPXI]

What's wrong with Greece having one of the strongest ancient units? I think civs with historical power spikes should be extremely noticeable in game. Personally I buffed immortals a little since I think they should be able to hold their own vs hoplites but vs everyone else I think they are at a good place in the ancient era

They should be strongest. They should not be as overwhelmingly powerful as they currently are.

 

[Legen]

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