[Vote] (9-05) Germany: Brewhouse Nerf and UA Buff

[stormfallen]

Motivation: As we're learning for the millionth time, common instant yield effects that scale both per city and per era are kinda busted. But on the flipside, Germany's early game is kinda ass until they reach their broken UBs (don't think I've forgotten about you, Hanse). Adding some extra efficiency to the UA shores them up a little bit.
Yes I know the instant scaling Gold from Policies is still there, but gaining a new Policy is fairly uncommon and Gold is a weaker yield.

TL;DR: Have the UA's cost decrease also apply to Workers and Work Boats, remove era scaling from Brewhouse's instant Culture from CS gifts but increase the base Culture from 10 to 15.

Current UA: Gain +1 Influence per turn with City-States for each gifted Unit (lost when killed). -15% Production and Gold costs for Military Units.

Current Brewhouse (differences from Windmill underlined):

• Cost: 600
• Maintenance: 4
• ----------------
• Production: +3
• Culture: +3
• Engineer Slots: 1
• Local Effects:
  • +15% Production for Non-Wonder Buildings
  • +1 Food +1 Culture to Granary
  • +1 Food +1 Culture to Grocer
  • +2 Production +2 Gold to Marsh
  • +1 Food +1 Culture to Wheat
  • +1 Food +1 Culture to Maize
  • +1 Food +1 Culture to Rice
  • +2 Production +2 Gold to Lake Tiles
  • When adopting a Policy: +10 Gold, scaling with Era
  • When a Unit is gifted to a City-State: +10 Culture, scaling with Era
• Empire-Wide Effects:
  • +1/9 Happiness in Capital for every Policy adopted
• ----------------
• Prerequisite Technologies: Economics
• ----------------
• List of possible boosts to this Building:
  • Division of Labor: +3% Production +3% Gold

Proposed UA (differences from current bolded): Gain +1

Influence per turn with City-States for each gifted Unit (lost when killed). -15%

Production and

Gold costs for Military Units, Workers, and Work Boats.

Proposed Brewhouse (differences from Windmill underlined, differences from current bolded or struckthrough):

• Cost: 600
  
• 
  Maintenance: 4
• ----------------
• 
  Production: +3
• 
  Culture: +3
• 
  Engineer Slots: 1
• Local Effects:
  • +15%
    
    Production for Non-Wonder Buildings
  • +1
    
    Food +1
    
    Culture to Granary
  • +1
    
    Food +1
    
    Culture to Grocer
  • +2
    
    Production +2
    
    Gold to Marsh
  • +1
    
    Food +1
    
    Culture to Wheat
  • +1
    
    Food +1
    
    Culture to Maize
  • +1
    
    Food +1
    
    Culture to Rice
  • +2
    
    Production +2
    
    Gold to Lake Tiles
  • When adopting a Policy: +10
    
    Gold, scaling with Era
  • When a Unit is gifted to a City-State: +15
    
    Culture, scaling with Era
• Empire-Wide Effects:
  • +1/9
    
    Happiness in
    
    Capital for every Policy adopted
• ----------------
• Prerequisite Technologies: Economics
• ----------------
• List of possible boosts to this Building:
  • Division of Labor: +3%
    
    Production +3%
    
    Gold

 

[Stalker0]

Can I also ask we update the text for the happiness boost, it’s not very intuitive what that bonus actually does as written.

 

[Alpakinator]

For context about current Brewhouse OP-ness:

Imagine Germany with 10 cities. Easy even on standard speed map size. Industrial era.
You focus on making Landsknechts so you gift 16 of them every 3 turns to city states remotely and 2 traveling by foot to their territory. That's 18 units * 40

*10 cities = 7200

every 3 turns. 400

per landsknecht that costs 275

. So it's like a 400/275 = 145% efficient

process that gives influence to all CS.

 

[redrum68]

I like the change and think its still good but not crazy then. I guess the alternative would be to scale by era but remove scaling by cities? So only the city that builds that unit would get the culture scaled by era. Depends I guess if we want Germany to be more wide/expansion centric or not.

 

[stormfallen]

I like the change and think its still good but not crazy then. I guess the alternative would be to scale by era but remove scaling by cities? So only the city that builds that unit would get the culture scaled by era. Depends I guess if we want Germany to be more wide/expansion centric or not.

Supposedly it's not possible to track the origin city of a gifted unit.

 

[azum4roll]

Can I also ask we update the text for the happiness boost, it’s not very intuitive what that bonus actually does as written.

That's the only way IMO. If we write it as "+1 Happiness in Capital for every 9 Policies adopted", you'd think that it only takes effect when you have 9/18/27/36 policies.

 

[hokath]

The table Building_YieldFromUnitGiftGlobal doesn't currently have a switch to turn off era scaling.

 

[paul_soryu]

I haven't played Germany in 5.0 yet, but what are your opinions on "lost when killed"? Isn't it too much of a buff for a human player? It was "lost when upgraded" when it was a modmod, and I thought it was still pretty strong. Human player can declare war on CS (or on Germany overall to not lose current Influence over CS) specifically to kill units gifted by Germany. I played against Germany and I gotta say it is very tough to compete with them over CSs, in the Modern Age it had whole map allied, even CSs which were enclaved inside my borders.

 

[FPXI]

I sorta think this whole building needs to be re-reconsidered, but I'll take any nerf we can get. If this one is non-viable due to implementation complexity, I'd be in favor of just reducing it 6 (?) per unit gifted and keeping the era scaling.

I like the worker UA change, but I think the work boat is out of theme for Germany.

 

[stormfallen]

I mainly just like having equivalence between Workers and Work Boats, but historically Germany and its predecessors did lots of fishing and trading through the North and Baltic Seas.

 

[FPXI]

I mainly just like having equivalence between Workers and Work Boats, but historically Germany and its predecessors did lots of fishing and trading through the North and Baltic Seas.

True enough. I think I lean toward "what do people imagine this civ to be like when they choose this" over "what did this civ actually do".

 

[Stalker0]

That's the only way IMO. If we write it as "+1 Happiness in Capital for every 9 Policies adopted", you'd think that it only takes effect when you have 9/18/27/36 policies.

It’s not that way? Than how the heck does it work?

 

[Alpakinator]

It’s not that way? Than how the heck does it work?

With 5 brewhouses and 13 policies, that's 5 * 13 / 9 = 65 / 9 = 7.22

 

[azum4roll]

With 5 brewhouses and 13 policies, that's 5 * 13 / 9 = 65 / 9 = 7.22

And rounded down to 7 since we don't have decimal happiness.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I see the point and I find the current culture bonus OP as well. I would rather keep the era scaling, but only give it to the FIRST unit gifted every turn. That way, it would also reduce the chore of gifting as many units a possible each turn to max this bonus to a single unit.

 

[azum4roll]

Then we have to make AI only gift once per turn.

 

[KungCheops]

I can sponsor the DLL part of this, it's just a small tweak to the UA, yes?

 

[hokath]

The UA part is database Trait_UnitCombatProductionCostModifiers
The DLL part is to remove (or add optional column for) the unit gift era scaling

 

[KungCheops]

That also sounds fairly simple, I can sponsor that part.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.