(9-056) Swap SotL for Longbowman

[hokath]

Motivation:
England change went through in the last congress, giving Combat Strength to the UA for all Ships. This part of the kit represents the long naval tradition of the civ.
This is similar to how Mongolia UA changed to give Double Attack to all Skirmishers, representing the long tradition of mounted archery. This was in the context of the redesign that saw Mongol Keshik become a unit for everyone (the heavy skirmisher).
Following this logic, we don't particularly need a unique Ship anymore.

Meanwhile, Longbowmen are iconic. Many people wanted them to come across in the 4UC integration, but they were wildly overpowered.
Now, thanks to work done in the 4UC integration, we have the ability to deactivate promotions when you are not on full HP.
In fact, this change is already in the game for the Longbowman (just as a minor civ gift)

---

Proposal:

• Make Ship of the Line a City-State gift
• Make Longbowman the English Crossbowman replacement
  • 
    
    
  • Assize of Arms is 20% versus Mounted/Armored and is kept on Upgrade
  • Agincourt is +1 Range at full HP and lost on upgrade
• Rename Agincourt to "Mighty Draw"
  since the current name, while patriotic, is not descriptive
• Range promo would overwrite Mighty Draw, removing the negative effect, rather than giving 4 range (which is physically questionable and unbalanced)

---

Implementation Notes:
Use UnitPromotions_BlockedPromotions to achieve Range overwrite

 

[Tekamthi]

Make Ship of the Line a City-State gift (i.e. not available since it is a Ship)

i wonder if there isn't room for ship of the line to fit into an entirely new line similar to the capital ships in the modmod sub -- maybe we'd have our existing melee ships, a 1-range attack and move line through the full game, and capital ships as our 2(+) range attack-ends-turn line, first appearing in mid-game.

OP makes sense though, I like it

 

[redrum68]

So this is mostly bringing back the old Longbowman except they don't keep the +1 range on upgrade and can't stack to get 4 range?

 

[paul_soryu]

So this is mostly bringing back the old Longbowman except they don't keep the +1 range on upgrade and can't stack to get 4 range?

And +1 Range is removed whenever unit isn't at full health, which is already the case.

 

[paul_soryu]

Make Ship of the Line a City-State gift (i.e. not available since it is a Ship)

What does "not available since it is a Ship" mean? I was gifted Spanish Armada in 5.0 alpha when playing as Egypt

 

[pineappledan]

Better idea:
Swap redcoat for Longbowman

 

[hokath]

I was gifted Spanish Armada in 5.0 alpha when playing as Egypt

I didn't know that was possible. Cool!

Better idea:
Swap redcoat for Longbowman

Bugs_Bunny.jpeg

 

[KlHannibal2]

Better idea:
Swap redcoat for Longbowman

This is it! Royal navy is way more iconic than red coats. And performed better vs. piers.

 

[azum4roll]

i wonder if there isn't room for ship of the line to fit into an entirely new line similar to the capital ships in the modmod sub -- maybe we'd have our existing melee ships, a 1-range attack and move line through the full game, and capital ships as our 2(+) range attack-ends-turn line, first appearing in mid-game.

I'm planning for that. Will need a bunch more models though.

 

[FPXI]

This is it! Royal navy is way more iconic than red coats. And performed better vs. piers.

I also would prefer the Redcoat swap. Ships of the Line are one of the most iconic implementations of national identity in the entire game. Completely opposed to their removal.

 

[vyyt]

i wonder if there isn't room for ship of the line to fit into an entirely new line similar to the capital ships in the modmod sub -- maybe we'd have our existing melee ships, a 1-range attack and move line through the full game, and capital ships as our 2(+) range attack-ends-turn line, first appearing in mid-game.

OP makes sense though, I like it

I did this in my mod-mod, and my experience (from a couple of years ago) was, that the fast "skirmisher" ships were too easy to abuse for the human player once ships gain more move points. Move in, shoot, move out of range (or even sight) in one turn was too strong and AI didn't know how to respond to it.

So in the end, I kept 2 types of ships until industrial, and then I have melee destroyers, 2-range cruisers and 3-range slower battleships (with limited numbers per player). I like navies, so for me it adds to the immersion, but it's probably enough to have just 2 types of ships in the base game/VP. Maybe (just maybe!) a more durable cruiser type of a ship which has 1-range, but expends all move points once it shoots might be worth trying out.

 

[azum4roll]

I did this in my mod-mod, and my experience (from a couple of years ago) was, that the fast "skirmisher" ships were too easy to abuse for the human player once ships gain more move points. Move in, shoot, move out of range (or even sight) in one turn was too strong and AI didn't know how to respond to it.

We simply have too many +1 move effects added to ships now. Submarines only have 4 moves but you can have 8-move ones out of the gate if you get every movement bonus.

Are submarines not in your mod?

 

[Alpakinator]

I also would prefer the Redcoat swap. Ships of the Line are one of the most iconic implementations of national identity in the entire game. Completely opposed to their removal.

Ships of the Line were built by The British, French, Spanish, Portugese, Danes, Dutch, Ottomans, Russians and probably others I missed. It's one of the least unique UUs in the game for sure, a common category for different types of big ships but with not a huge amount of design differences between nations. The British were probably the 1st to build one though - "Prince Royal" AFAIK, but I'm not sure.

IMO, Ship of The Line truly belongs to a well made ship class overhaul into Capital Ranged, Ranged and Melee ships.

 

[Tekamthi]

the fast "skirmisher" ships were too easy to abuse for the human player once ships gain more move points. Move in, shoot, move out of range (or even sight) in one turn was too strong and AI didn't know how to respond to it.

True this was why VP ended the entire naval shoot n scoot era in the first place... Was hoping our modern VP AI might be able to cope

 

[Alpakinator]

True this was why VP ended the entire naval shoot n scoot era in the first place... Was hoping our modern VP AI might be able to cope

This era is still here with Liburnas, Galleases and Blitz melee ships

 

[FPXI]

Ships of the Line were built by The British, French, Spanish, Portugese, Danes, Dutch, Ottomans, Russians and probably others I missed. It's one of the least unique UUs in the game for sure, a common category for different types of big ships but with not a huge amount of design differences between nations. The British were probably the 1st to build one though - "Prince Royal" AFAIK, but I'm not sure.

IMO, Ship of The Line truly belongs to a well made ship class overhaul into Capital Ranged, Ranged and Melee ships.

Right, but this is essentialyl the same thing with the Hoplite and it works as iconic for the British for similar reasons.

 

[vyyt]

This era is still here with Liburnas, Galleases and Blitz melee ships

Yes, but the difference is that the early ships have just a few movement points. It's the fast ships of the later eras.

 

[vyyt]

True this was why VP ended the entire naval shoot n scoot era in the first place... Was hoping our modern VP AI might be able to cope

I worry that even with capable AI, cycling numerous fast shoot-n-scoot ships will be bad. I think I'll try the idea of shot-n-stay-put(-n-endure-some-pounding) - when I have some time.

 

[Alpakinator]

Yes, but the difference is that the early ships have just a few movement points. It's the fast ships of the later eras.

True, movements makes all the difference here. I'm just saing it's still achievable with gallases (or blitz melee throughout the game) and one or more of these:
- imperialism,
- coal mono,
- Great Lighthouse,
- England
- Venice.
Sorry to derail the convo, but imo move after attacking 6-7 movement galleases are comparable or stronger than Frigates EDIT: vs cities yes, otherwise naahh.

 

[Alpakinator]

I think move after attacking is necessary for a dynamic and more fun naval gameplay, and AI uses it well, especially when sieging cities before Frigates.