(9-071) Belated 4UC Re-proposal II: Carthage

[pineappledan]

Description of the winning proposal from 4UC integration

Spoiler Asamu carthage :

Unique Civilian - Asamu (unique UnitClass)
Unlocked at Pottery ; obsoletes at Railroad
Doesn't replace Settler ; upgrades into Pioneer
Cannot be produced
Must be purchased with Gold and does not consume Citizens when purchased
Can move immediatly once purchased
Only one can exist at the same time

2 MP / 2 Vision

Elisha's Guile - Withdraw before melee (once per turn) ; +1 Vision on land and when embarked ; can Embark

Can be expended to found a City. When founding a City, provides a free Lighthouse.

Proposed alternative component: Back to the Tophet, babee!

Spoiler Easy Bake Oven :

UB - Tophet (replaces Shrine):

Available at Agriculture​

65 Production cost​

+1 Gold +2 Faith​

Gain Culture and Food on Purchases (Faith or Gold) equal to 5% Gold or Faith cost​

4UC has been out for a little while and I haven't heard a kind word about the Asamu

• Its icon is an ugly overexposed photograph of a LARPer squinting
• Carthage has both a free lighthouse and a free harbour with the UA, so the extra buildings are beating a dead horse
• It sucks up all of Carthage's gold for expansions and makes them not feel like a gold civ
• It messes up early game pacing
• It has a bunch of movement bonuses that don't matter
• It's the only civilian bonus component that obsoletes
• the 'lore' behind the unit is nonexistent
• The limit of 1 on empire is annoying

The Tophet, while not super flashy, has quite a few positives:

• the icon is a badass painting of a flaming bull-god
• opens up shrine starts, which are normally an "off-meta" build order for Carthage
• It works with Carthage's gold bonuses and boosts to unit purchases to empower gold spending, rather than hoovering up all gold for a unique gold sink
• They have a wikipedia article and are a recognizably real thing that represents something in history and world culture

 

[FPXI]

I don't think shrine first is actually off-meta for Carthage (at least on standard map size). Liberty + Shrine is natural.

That aside. I agree with all the above criticisms, except I think starting with the gold on sea tiles that results from a free lighthouse is integral to evoking their identity and getting their gold rolling. We should find a way to keep that.

 

[Alpakinator]

"Children yearn for the shrines!" - ,circa 600 BCE.

 

[hokath]

Implementation note: the Tophet is icon index 56 in the building atlas #1 (I kept it around for a rainy day)

On the actual change. I tried Asamu and while I like the way the unit handles (though no barbs tried to take me? so I didn't see the withdraw), it certainly feels like it doesn't really justify the entire component slot.
If this sort of thing is desirable, I think a unique promotion handed to Settlers is probably the best way to do it (Celtic pantheon self promotion)
In the future, I would like to add the Master Shipwright National Wonder (at Mathematics). This would be a natural thing for the Great Cothon to replace, and we could consider changing the free Harbor for a free Lighthouse, then.

 

[FPXI]

Asamu retreating from an unexpected barbarian is so satisfying. Very funny. I like this idea of making it a Settler promotion and allowing Carthage to buy or build them.

 

[Legen]

When I tried the Asamu, I found it neat, and a major economic boon to Carthage. It is worth 106 in the city you purchase it, plus lots of food from not having to spend multiple turns in starvation and losing population, and then another 150 on the city you found due to the free lighthouse. Asamu also adds flexibility in where the settler will come from; most civs can spend over 10 turns if they try to build one in a satellite city.

The only issue I saw that that the initial 500 cost is too heavy and prevents Carthage from its expected settler rush. I think the cost could be lowered, or changed to a formula with a gradual increase to its cost.

For instance: 200 + 100*<number of Asamu previously purchased in the Empire (not including the starting Asamu)>
May include a cap to the scaling gold cost.

Outside the current gold cost, I think the Asamu is fine, and an overall improvement over the Tophet it competed with in the 4UC Congress. The yields the Tophet can generate don't really match the sheer amount of production and food the Asamu effectively provides.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Description of the winning proposal from 4UC integration

Spoiler Asamu carthage :

Unique Civilian - Asamu (unique UnitClass)
Unlocked at Pottery ; obsoletes at Railroad
Doesn't replace Settler ; upgrades into Pioneer
Cannot be produced
Must be purchased with Gold and does not consume Citizens when purchased
Can move immediatly once purchased
Only one can exist at the same time

2 MP / 2 Vision

Elisha's Guile - Withdraw before melee (once per turn) ; +1 Vision on land and when embarked ; can Embark

Can be expended to found a City. When founding a City, provides a free Lighthouse.

Proposed alternative component: Back to the Tophet, babee!

Spoiler Easy Bake Oven :

UB - Tophet (replaces Shrine):

Available at Agriculture​

65 Production cost​

+1 Culture, +2 Faith​

Gain Culture and Food on Purchases (Faith or Gold) equal to 5% Gold or Faith cost​

4UC has been out for a little while and I haven't heard a kind word about the Asamu

• Its icon is an ugly overexposed photograph of a LARPer squinting
• Carthage has both a free lighthouse and a free harbour with the UA, so the extra buildings are beating a dead horse
• It sucks up all of Carthage's gold for expansions and makes them not feel like a gold civ
• It messes up early game pacing
• It has a bunch of movement bonuses that don't matter
• It's the only civilian bonus component that obsoletes
• the 'lore' behind the unit is nonexistent
• The limit of 1 on empire is annoying

The Tophet, while not super flashy, has quite a few positives:

• the icon is a badass painting of a flaming bull-god
• opens up shrine starts, which are normally an "off-meta" build order for Carthage
• It works with Carthage's gold bonuses and boosts to unit purchases to empower gold spending, rather than hoovering up all gold for a unique gold sink
• They have a wikipedia article and are a recognizably real thing that represents something in history and world culture

I fully agree. The Asamu cost so much gold that I could not buy anything else. The old Tophet with purchasing units was way more fun.

 

[Stalker0]

I fully agree. The Asamu cost so much gold that I could not buy anything else.

Just did a carthage run and I have to agree. I built one of them out of like 7 settlers, was just way too pricey.


Now that said, this Tophet....considering how early that comes in (probably for 99% of purchases in a game), that is going to be a LOT of culture and food overall.

 

[hokath]

My objection to the old Tophet was basically that it was overtuned at the start of the game. The effect was, I believe, 20 Culture on purchase, scaling with Era.
5% of cost would be more like 8--12 Culture, which is still a lot but much better. Extra food is a bit peculiar though, isn't it?
Maybe another option is to use Building_GrowthExtraYield to make it like the Aqueduct effect, but for Culture. So gain X% of the City's Culture output when a Citizen is born.
I would probably choose X% = 50%

 

[pineappledan]

I’m flexible on yield type and amount. 5% just seemed low. That’s half the amount of the next lowest yield on purchase amount and 1/3 of Banks

 

[Stalker0]

I’m flexible on yield type and amount. 5% just seemed low. That’s half the amount of the next lowest yield on purchase amount and 1/3 of Banks

big difference between banks which you get at the mid point, and the tophet which you basically have for the entire game

 

[pineappledan]

Just explaining my logic. 5% culture looked right for the ultra early purchases, but it also looked so dinky relative to things like indulgences that I put a 2nd yield on it. Maybe that’s wrongheaded, as I said, I’m open to suggestions

 

[azum4roll]

My objection to the old Tophet was basically that it was overtuned at the start of the game. The effect was, I believe, 20 Culture on purchase, scaling with Era.
5% of cost would be more like 8--12 Culture, which is still a lot but much better. Extra food is a bit peculiar though, isn't it?
Maybe another option is to use Building_GrowthExtraYield to make it like the Aqueduct effect, but for Culture. So gain X% of the City's Culture output when a Citizen is born.
I would probably choose X% = 50%

My proposal was "When a new Citizen is born, gain Culture equal to 5% of the required Food", so similar.

 

[Alpakinator]

It'd be better. Gaining food with a human sacrifice Shrine is sus. (pls. clarify if it was the case historically for Carthaginians, cause idk).

 

[hokath]

I started writing the counterproposal but just felt like it just wasn't supported by anything in the kit, and too weak earlier compared to later.
This one gets quite strong later, but then your UA also "turns off" as the game goes on to a certain extent. So that's probably ok.

I think just drop the Food. Or add Golden Age Points

 

[pineappledan]

Or add Golden Age Points

Are you my nemesis? I think you’re my nemesis.

 

[pineappledan]

The other option is drop both and sub for science like a mini early bank.
They have instant science from luxuries, but is that enough? They invented a lot of cool stuff.

 

[FPXI]

My proposal was "When a new Citizen is born, gain Culture equal to 5% of the required Food", so similar.

I like this a lot better.

 

[hokath]

After writing an essay on Border Growth Points, what about replacing the Food with BGP? It effectively would double the local value of the culture toward tile expansion. This is nice because it frees up more Gold for Carthage to spend on units (and buildings). Whereas buying tiles won't trigger the Tophet effect and is therefore a big waste of gold you're going to want to avoid.

I think on balance the +1 Culture maybe should be removed. The 5% conversion is already a lot, especially in light of the amount of Gold you get early from the UA.
Done this way, you aren't compelled to go Tophet first, but you can do a tactic of Tophet->Purchase to expand borders in a City which needs to grab a 2nd ring lux etc.

What do you think?

 

[pineappledan]

FaithMaybe swap the 21 for 21?

Could do that, yeah then it contributes both sides to ourchasing