(9-100) Early Game Combat Balancing Except Pikeman

[redrum68]

Motivation
Certain units are a bit too weak or too strong early game. For the most part, the core of your army progression is Archer/Spear -> Composite Bow -> Knight -> Crossbow -> Musketman/Lancer with a few Siege units to help capture cities and a few Skirmisher units for flanking bonuses. Most of the other units are only used if you have a UU for them or a specific situation. The weakest unit is probably Pikeman which needs a bit more adjustment and there are separate proposals addressing it so this will focus on the rest of the early game units.

Core principles should be that strategic resource units are a bit stronger than non-strategic resource units and each unit line should have a distinct role. You can make a decent army with no strategic resources but the mounted and sword lines should be a bit stronger.

The other combat related piece that needs adjusted a bit is the stable production bonus for mounted units as +33% production makes knights/lancers incredibly cheap to build compared to other unit lines.

I'm not sure if this is better broken up into smaller proposals around each unit and their UUs or better together as it presents a complete picture and reduces number of proposals. Maybe depends on feedback and if people agree with all of it vs individual pieces.

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Proposal Summary

• Stable
  • Reduce Production for Mounted Units from 33% to 25% (small indirect nerf to Knights/Lancers though not sure this is enough but its a start)
  • Ducal Stable Production for Mounted Units reduced from 50% to 40%
  • Homestead no changes
• Horseman
  • CS increased from 13 to 14 (too weak compared to spears especially since warriors upgrade into them and too large a CS difference between them and Knights)
  • Tarkhan CS increased from 14 to 15
• Swordsman
  • CS increased from 16 to 17 (a bit too weak for a strategic resource unit especially since you can't upgrade into them so have to produce them)
  • Mohawk Warrior no change
  • Legion increase Pilum damage from 10 to 15
  • Kris Swordsman CS increased from 16 to 17
• Composite Bowman
  • CS decreased from 12 to 11 (should be a bit weaker to melee attacks so having a frontline is more important)
  • Atlatlist CS decreased from 13 to 12
• Longswordsman
  • CS increased from 22 to 23 (a bit too weak for a strategic resource unit especially compared to Knights)
  • Samurai no change
  • Jaguar no change
  • Chewa CS increased from 24 to 25
  • Inti Maceman no change

 

[hokath]

I actually do +2 to Horsemen because of how weak they are. Recall Spearman is already 12, so you are paying extra and 1 just for the movement, at the moment (and the chance to get promo for a Knight).
Horsemen used to be a bit scarier (which is I think one of the reasons Barbarians now only get them if the camp spawns next to a Horse resource).
So +1 is quite safe, I think.

Overall these are all very gentle. Probably Pilum is the most significant change because you can carry it through the game.

The Stables change I think is sensible. The amount of reduction you get on Knights and Lancers is quite enormous at the moment and I'm not sure it makes much sense in the round.

 

[FPXI]

This looks great. Love the restraint.

 

[vyyt]

It seems many people dislike Pikemen because they're too weak, but if we can't make them stronger, because there wouldn't be enough distinction between them and Longswords.

How about keeping them a bit weak when they're alone/exposed to enemy attack, but giving them some adjacency/flanking bonus when they're forming a line? I suppose the AI is able to flank/position melee units next to each other to some extent already.

 

[redrum68]

It seems many people dislike Pikemen because they're too weak, but if we can't make them stronger, because there wouldn't be enough distinction between them and Longswords.

How about keeping them a bit weak when they're alone/exposed to enemy attack, but giving them some adjacency/flanking bonus when they're forming a line? I suppose the AI is able to flank/position melee units next to each other to some extent already.

Would probably be too similar to Hoplites.

 

[vyyt]

Would probably be too similar to Hoplites.

Maybe, but is it a problem? I think general game rules should take priority over UU/niche rules. If it would make sense for Pikemen, we could change Hoplites a bit.

 

[redrum68]

Maybe, but is it a problem? I think general game rules should take priority over UU/niche rules. If it would make sense for Pikemen, we could change Hoplites a bit.

Fair point. Sounds like a good counterproposal to me

 

[FPXI]

I still object to the pikeman name change. Simply think it's a worse name and solves nothing to change it.

 

[redrum68]

I still object to the pikeman name change. Simply think it's a worse name and solves nothing to change it.

I'm neutral on it just adopted the original proposal's changes there. If its controversial then maybe better to split out the renaming from the balance changes.

 

[Stalker0]

just noting the Sword and cbow change have been done earlier in the mod history and pulled back. Sword at 17 is pretty invincible, cbow at 11 has no defense against knights (at 12 at least it can take a hit in most cases)

 

[redrum68]

just noting the Sword and cbow change have been done earlier in the mod history and pulled back. Sword at 17 is pretty invincible, cbow at 11 has no defense against knights (at 12 at least it can take a hit in most cases)

Fair but I'm guessing a lot has changed since then as well. Buffing horseman a bit helps give another potential counter to swords for example. The pikeman change here should make it easier to either guard your cbows or kill a knight that dives in to kill a cbow.

 

[KlHannibal2]

It seems many people dislike Pikemen because they're too weak, but if we can't make them stronger, because there wouldn't be enough distinction between them and Longswords.

How about keeping them a bit weak when they're alone/exposed to enemy attack, but giving them some adjacency/flanking bonus when they're forming a line? I suppose the AI is able to flank/position melee units next to each other to some extent already.

I dislike building pikemen, but I like having them in the game as-is. They make strategic resources strong and interesting and give you a lower tier unit that you have to manage accordingly. Also historically, armies had trash units along side elite knights that the commander had to manage.

 

[FPXI]

I dislike building pikemen, but I like having them in the game as-is. They make strategic resources strong and interesting and give you a lower tier unit that you have to manage accordingly. Also historically, armies had trash units along side elite knights that the commander had to manage.

Good points. Also, sometimes you just need a unit, any unit, right now and the spear/pike line are cheap. That's an okay niche to fulfill.

 

[azum4roll]

I dislike building pikemen, but I like having them in the game as-is. They make strategic resources strong and interesting and give you a lower tier unit that you have to manage accordingly. Also historically, armies had trash units along side elite knights that the commander had to manage.

1UPT makes that quality >>> quantity, especially at a narrow battlefront. A unit is useless if it simply dies within a turn.

 

[redrum68]

Updated to remove the Pikeman related changes so it can be a separate proposal now that there are multiple Pikeman proposals.

 

[azum4roll]

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