9/11 Effects and Aftermath

[Zardnaar]

I'm not an American but I'll start off with a story.

In 2000 I was living with this family. The father was reasonably intelligent and we had a discussion. Osama Bin Laden came up anyway (how well known was he in the USA pre 9/11 anyway). His arguement was that OBL was the biggest threat to the USA. My arguement was China say in 10 or 20 years time. Or to quote myself "Would an American President consider a war/nuclear strike to preserve the American way of life when Chinas economy replaces Americas as No.1 in the world?

Fast forward to 9/11. I got out of bed and stumbled off to work. I live in New Zealand and it was 7am or so when I got there and someone said to me "Americas been attacked". At this point details were unavailable and we had no TV at work and I hadn't listened to the Radio yet. I thought some idiot had (China, Iran, North Korea) had attacked a US base or maybe America itself.

Around about 5pm I got home and started to watch TV and Osamas name came up and I remembered my conversation from the year before. 9/11 didn't really surprise me just the scale of it. I had recently read Rising Sun the Tom Clancy novel where a Japanese pilot takes out congress with a 747 so a plane as a bomb wasn't an original idea.

Anyway at this point the news sources where useless. The American networks were hysterical and the Arab ones were gleeful. I had a sneaky suspicion some country was gonna get it in the neck (Aghganistan in this case).

Anyways with a bit of hindsight how does this compare with say Pearl Harbor. Or is it to early. How has it effected the life of an ordinary American?

 

[Marla_Singer]

Well I think personally the Sept. 11th did change the world a lot. Before this attack, America was seeing itself as a country which could never be attacked on its own soil. It was unthinkable. Even terrorism on the American soil wasn't felt as a great threat. It's been a long time the effect of the first WTC bombing were forgotten.

Moreover, the United States were seeing themselves as a good nation if not the only good nation. And that was a huge attack... It was the kind of thing only plot freaks would have thought about. It was too big to be only an action from one guy hidden in a cave in Afghanistan. It couldn't be the evidence that only the talibans were hating them... It was necessarily wider. In some kind of way, on that day, american people felt as if it was the whole world together that has attacked their beloved country.

The President of the USA was definitly the bad one at the bad time. Instead of calming this feeling and put americans back on earth, he kept alive that first feeling that it was the whole world against the americans. And that's how things got as nasty as they are now.

Today in America, deep principles of Democracy that the whole world considers as pillars of the american Nation are seen as less important. I'm amazed to see americans considering that if Saddam doesn't have a fair trial, it wouldn't be that bad. Such an idea looks to me as completely anti-american. Who would have thought americans would accept so easily a war for which the official reason sounds so fake ?

Finally, I got the strong feeling the USA has changed. Under Clinton, the US was the most powerful democracy and the leader of the free world. Now the US is becoming a too powerful Empire defending its interests no matter the means used to defend them.

The 2004 election will be an enormous step in America's History : Will the people of America confirm they want to be that Empire or, at the opposite, will they claim they want to go back to the old formula of America ?

 

[MattE]

Marla America had been attacked many times on its own soil.

I think the world has grown to wise for a nuclear war, it's not an impossibility but it would be extremely unlikely. I think the world saw the devestation inflicted during WW2 with the 2 a-bombs that were dropped and even though a race to build more began I doubt any one man could push a button and begin armageddon.

Conventional war on the other hand is very easy to start. And if China did become the leading economic power in the world I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if they (China) attacked the Western world. Even though recently I heard China was decreasing the size of its military by some enormous number. (Can't remeber exeact number).

I biggest fear at the moment is North Korea. That leader of theirs is crazy. Even threatening nuclear war is a sign of maddness.

I'll never forget 9/11. I live in Australia, it was 10:45 pm on Tuesday Sept 11th. I was watching tv when a news thing came up and said a plane had crashed into the World Trade Centre. I suspected terrorism but also believed it could've been an accident because this had happened before back in the 1950s when a B-25 Mitchel (I think) crashed into the Empire State Builing.

I was sitting watching live pictures from the site when I saw the second plane hit. At first I thought it was a replay of the first but then relized it was a second. Then I knew without a doubt it was terrorism. For the rest of the night right up till 3 am I watched as aircraft rained from the sky and people jumped off the burning buildings, I saw the towers collapse and even though I was directly affected those images send a chill down my spine everytime and I will never forget that day. And seeing those images of Arabs celebrating the days events really mad me hate them.

Using planes as bombs has been around since WW2 probably earlier.

Surely 9/11 is one of the most influential days of America's if not the world's history, but for me personally I think it will never rival tragedies such as Pearl Harbour.

I don't love America but I respect and support them, they are our allies and our friends and I will always expect us (Australia, Britain, Western allies in general except for France) to help when needed.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Marla America had been attacked many times on its own soil.

When ? during the 19th century ? do you honnestly think americans were thinking they could be attacked on their own soil at any time before the Sept. 11th ?

Obviously you missed my point.

 

[The Yankee]

If we're swapping stories about Sept. 11th, I posted my experience on an anniversary thread in OT, but maybe once I ever get around to it, find it and copy it onto here. Let's just say....TV never captured the horror, the tragedy....

 

[MattE]

- Raid of Deerfield, Massachusetts in Queen Anne's War
February 29, 1704 (Colonial America)

- Stono's Rebellion
September 9, 1739 (Slave uprisinging in Colonial America - technically not an attack)

- French and Indian Wars (Again technically not an American war)

- The Revolutionary Period

- Barbary Wars (America itself not attacked but Americans attacked)

- War of 1812

- Mexican - American War

- The Civil War

- The Spanish - American War

- Phillipines Insurecction

- WW1 (almost, German Sabotuers were sent to America to attack shipping and incite Mexico to attack but never happened)

- WW2 (many times attacked and invaded)

- Sept 11 as well as countless other terrorist attacks

I'm sure there's more that I've missed but I think you get the point.

 

[Chauliodus]

When ? during the 19th century ? do you honnestly think americans were thinking they could be attacked on their oil soil at any time before the Sept. 11th ?

The '93 WTC Bombing~

WW2 (many times attacked and invaded)

The only thiing that comes close to being attacked during WWII was when a Japanese floating bomb that was downed and exploded when a courious family came to check it out. They were the only Americian civies to die on homesoil during the war.

 

[MattE]

Before I go on let me get one thing straight. Are we talking about only civies get killed or are we talking about America being attacked in general?

In WW2 we have;

- Pearl Harbour
- Wake Island
- Phillipines (Not sur if it was still an American Territory at the time)
- The Aleutian Islands were invaded
- Midway

 

[Marla_Singer]

The only thiing that comes close to being attacked during WWII was when a Japanese floating bomb that was downed exploded when a courious family came to check it out. They were the only Americian civies to die on homesoil during the war.

Thank you.

MattE totally missed the point. I wasn't asking for a list of american war. America has never seen the germans dodging Maginot's line to invade them. America has never lived the Blitz with Washington being endlessly bombed. Americans had never seen a hord of napoleonic armies killing "rebels". Americans had never see the whole city St Petersburg, FL dying in hunger because Stalin thought Russia was more important than some citizens.

Please tell me MattE why it's so important for you to ruin my post only by such a stupid thing ? Moreover, I was talking about the future. Are you expecting Canadians to invade Washington sooner or later ?

 

[Marla_Singer]

- Pearl Harbour
- Wake Island
- Phillipines (Not sur if it was still an American Territory at the time)
- The Aleutian Islands were invaded
- Midway

None of these were part of the Federal States.

 

[MattE]

They were American territories and dependants, therefore making them America I would think.

 

[Chauliodus]

They were territories, it would be like Toronto getting nuked and calling the dead British casualties.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Thrown to OT, for the wolves... Fr History...

 

[Stapel]

On Topic: The effects of 9/11 on economy are close to zero. It has often been abused as an excuse to cover up bad management. For those who are interested: It took 6 months, before the DJ-index went below the 9/10 closing rate.... (except the first few weeks with panic trading)

The most important effect is that 3000 innocent civlilians have died. There are 3000 families, missing a relative that will never ever be replaced.

That is a bad thing, but still not as bad as the amount of people that have died since 9/11 in car accidents. This is a very weird way of putting things in perspective, but that is always the case when talking about human lifes. It feels immoral, in a way.

Furthermore, 9/11 was the direct cause to attack Iraq, though the two are not linked.
Howmany innocent civilians in Iraq have died during this year's war?
And did the war make America a saver place to live?

It is still to early to draw conclusions on the effect of 9/11, I think.

 

[Marla_Singer]

It is still to early to draw conclusions on the effect of 9/11, I think.

Those effects you're talking about aren't due to the Sept. 11th, they are due to the President George Walker Bush. He started his way to do politics before 9/11, he continued after. So, of course you're right, it's still too early to draw conclusion since the guy is still there for 5 years.

 

[carlosMM]

Originally posted by MattE
- Raid of Deerfield, Massachusetts in Queen Anne's War
February 29, 1704 (Colonial America)

- Stono's Rebellion
September 9, 1739 (Slave uprisinging in Colonial America - technically not an attack)

- French and Indian Wars (Again technically not an American war)

- The Revolutionary Period

- Barbary Wars (America itself not attacked but Americans attacked)

- War of 1812

a tad old, hu? and how to attack something that doesn't exist - 1704?????

- Mexican - American War

- The Civil War

- The Spanish - American War

attacks BY Americans

- Phillipines Insurecction

an attack on the american homeland, yes, sure...... heute gehört uns America, morgen die ganze Welt????

- WW1 (almost, German Sabotuers were sent to America to attack shipping and incite Mexico to attack but never happened)

- WW2 (many times attacked and invaded)

again, 'never happened' and where were thos imagined attacks on US soil on the North American continent? there was only Pearl Harbour.... yes, yes, you own every place in the world so when I take a leak in the woods I am pissing on America

- Sept 11 as well as countless other terrorist attacks

WTC bombing was the first attack, Sept 11 WTC attack the second


sorry, but this 'we can attack anyone, then we own it and then any defence against us is an attack on us (Phillipines) is such arrogant nonsense! Like MPPs work in Civ!

 

[Mark Young]

Hey MattE, you need to find a new school with new text books.

 

[EzInKy]

Originally posted by Marla_Singer
Well I think personally the Sept. 11th did change the world a lot. Before this attack, America was seeing itself as a country which could never be attacked on its own soil. It was unthinkable. Even terrorism on the American soil wasn't felt as a great threat. It's been a long time the effect of the first WTC bombing were forgotten.

Perhaps younger Americans felt they could never be attacked. I distinctly remember sitting in an auditorium with a coat over my head during "duck and cover" drills.

Moreover, the United States were seeing themselves as a good nation if not the only good nation. And that was a huge attack... It was the kind of thing only plot freaks would have thought about. It was too big to be only an action from one guy hidden in a cave in Afghanistan. It couldn't be the evidence that only the talibans were hating them... It was necessarily wider. In some kind of way, on that day, american people felt as if it was the whole world together that has attacked their beloved country.

I've always felt that most European nations, and many Asian/Pacific nations were "good", in short just about all democracies where people have a say in their government and a guarantee of human rights. I saw the attack on the WTC as even more horendous than the attack on Pearl Harbor and knew that, just as in WW2, the US was at war.

The President of the USA was definitly the bad one at the bad time. Instead of calming this feeling and put americans back on earth, he kept alive that first feeling that it was the whole world against the americans. And that's how things got as nasty as they are now.

Compare Bush's actions to those of Roosevelt, Churchill and DeGaulle. If he had went to the public and said "Hey y'all, we had this coming!" he would've been tarred and feathered. Also he never said the whole world was against the US.

Today in America, deep principles of Democracy that the whole world considers as pillars of the american Nation are seen as less important. I'm amazed to see americans considering that if Saddam doesn't have a fair trial, it wouldn't be that bad. Such an idea looks to me as completely anti-american. Who would have thought americans would accept so easily a war for which the official reason sounds so fake ?

You support France depriving a segment of their population of the right to display a sign of their religious beliefs in public institutions such as schools then accuse America of violating deep democratic principles? Anyway, Saddam will get a fair trial. People say stupid things when they are angry.

Finally, I got the strong feeling the USA has changed. Under Clinton, the US was the most powerful democracy and the leader of the free world. Now the US is becoming a too powerful Empire defending its interests no matter the means used to defend them.

I liked Clinton as a President too, but "shooting a missle at a camel's butt" did nothing to stop Bin Laden. Even Nader would've bombed Afghanistan if he were President in 2001. As for Iraq, did you know that Clinton signed into law the "Iraqi Liberation Act" making it US policy to get rid of Saddam?

The 2004 election will be an enormous step in America's History : Will the people of America confirm they want to be that Empire or, at the opposite, will they claim they want to go back to the old formula of America ?

Which old America are you talking about Marla? The one that was willing to sacrifice millions of their youth after being attacked by Japan? The one that was willing to risk nuclear war to keep atomic weapons out of Cuba and protect Europe from being absorbed by the communist bloc? The one that supported despots like Hussein in order to strangle the Soviet Union to death and free Eastern Europe? We are the same "old" US, you just seem to be picking the side of the "bad guys" in this one.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Zardnaar
Anyways with a bit of hindsight how does this compare with say Pearl Harbor. Or is it to early. How has it effected the life of an ordinary American?

It was a more galvanizing event than pearl harbor, and the war on terosim will be the most importan factor in USA foreign policy for many years, barring a war with significant power. It will take priority over most other considerations in most USA foriegn policy judgments. (Get use to it, rest of the world, the first thing the USA will ask in most foreign policy deals will be "How does this help the war on terrorism")

The goverment has not felt the need to modbilzed for total global war, ala ww2, some its effect on daily life has been somewhat limited. For most USA person just some minor incoveniences and expenses, and the propective long term economic effets of the increased goverment spending and debt.

 

[Marla_Singer]

We are the same "old" US, you just seem to be picking the side of the "bad guys" in this one.

Which side is the one of the bad guys ? You mean believing the war would be even worst for the Middle East ? I'm sorry to say so, but we still not have any answer to that question...

Now that the war has been done, we just have to make everything to see things getting better. We are far from it now.