[Vote] (9-20) Policy Tweaks VII: Imperialism Change

[hokath]

Motivation:
Industrial Policy trees are in a weird place. The previous 6 trees all have really strong character, for me. But then you get to choice #3 and it feels the design goes downhill a bit.
I think some of this can be blamed on the fact these trees come later and so fewer people have cared about it compared to more pressing, early game problems.
In brief, Rationalism is king due to the high value of Science (and Great Scientists), and then Imperialism has a niche for Warmongers (and has some fun effects for them). Industry is left a bit behind; there are some rare use cases, and it does have some strong modifiers for multiple yields, but I think it's generally not considered competitive.
Here I present the changes from my proposal mod that significantly overhaul the trees with a view to creating a lower powerlevel Rationalism and Industry where the trees have a food/sci versus prod/gold flavor sitting on a number of general yield bonuses with varied hooks. There are minor changes to Imperialism.

Imperialism has some really fun stuff in it. Military bonuses including utility like being able to upgrade in other territory and keeping conquered buildings.
I wanted to lean in to some of its economic hooks to buff it slightly.
Specifically I wanted to add more border growth, which I think it on-brand for the tree and creates a synergy for authority economically.
The big change is a buff to the tree by making the puppet yields 10% better, really doubling down on the puppet mechanic (whereas annexing may prefer Industry).
To stop people coming in and just taking 3 points for a massive buff (possible now, especially with some zealous Great Writer use) I've also gated it to policy 4 at the earliest.

---

Proposal:
Imperialism

• Tree Structure is now
  
  
  • Civilizing Mission
  • Regimental System
  • Colonialism
  • Exploitation (requires Colonialism)
  • Martial Law (requires all three T1)
• Opener
  • +1 Movement for Naval Units, Embarked Units, and Great Generals, as well as +1 Sight for Melee, Recon, Naval Melee and Gunpowder Units.
  • +10% Production toward Military Units, -10% Gold required for upgrades.
• Scaler
  • +5% Production for Military Units, -5% Gold required for upgrades.
• Civilizing Mission
  • Retain all buildings from conquered Cities.
  • Receive 75 Gold when you conquer a city, scaling with Era and City Population.
  • +10% Production toward Buildings, with an additional +10% Production per Era difference between your current Era and the building's Era in all Puppeted Cities and Cities with a Courthouse.
• Regimental System
  • Earn Great Generals and Great Admirals 33% faster.
  • Great Generals and Great Admirals gain the Regimental Traditions Promotion (+10% Leadership Combat Bonus and +1 Tile Radius).
  • +2 additional copies of the unique Luxury Resources from expending Great Admirals for their Voyage of Discovery ability.
  • Military Units can be upgraded in territory owned by Vassals and friendly City-States.
• Colonialism
  • +2 Science and +1 Culture from Barracks, Armories, Bastion Fort, Military Academies, Forts, and Citadels.
    I really don't like these policies where they boost buildings you obviously already have by now. You better werk!
  • Each unique Global Monopoly modifier is increased by an additional 10% if it's percentage-based, or +3 otherwise.
  • Now +2 Science, Culture, and Great Admiral Points Citadels and Manufactories
    Nice symmetry with each of the 3 main GPTI having a buff in each tree
• Exploitation
  • +2 Food and +1 Production from Farms, Camps, and Plantations.
  • +1 Production and Science from Coasts, Lakes, and Oceans.
  • Gains +3 Food, Production, and Border Growth on Luxury Resources
    Luxuries are concentrated in the regions, so you get most out of this if you've taken over another civ
    BGP creates a synergy with Authority and other Border Expand effects the fits Imperalism's flavor
• Martial Law
  • No Gold Maintenance from Garrisons.
  • +1 Happiness and +4 Culture for each Garrison.
  • +2 Culture and Border Growth Points to Forts
  • -30% (up from -20%) Yield penalties of Puppeted Cities.
• Finisher
  • Unlocks building the Pentagon.
  • All Naval and Air units gain the Banzai! Promotion (become stronger as they take damage).
  • Allows for the purchase of Great Admirals with Faith starting in the Industrial Era.

---

References:
The other industrial changes can be found

[Vote] Thread '(9-19) Policy Tweaks VI: Rationalism Rework'

Jan 2, 2026

Motivation:
Industrial Policy trees are in a weird place. The previous 6 trees all have really strong character, for me. But then you get to choice #3 and it feels the design goes downhill a bit.
I think some of this can be blamed on the fact these trees come later and so fewer people have cared about it compared to more pressing, early game problems.
In brief, Rationalism is king due to the high value of Science (and Great Scientists), and then Imperialism has a niche for Warmongers (and has some fun effects for them). Industry is left a bit behind; there are some rare use cases, and it...

• hokath
• Replies: 38
• Forum: Passed Proposals

• 

and

[Vote] Thread '(9-21) Policy Tweaks VIII: Rebalanced Industry'

Jan 3, 2026

Motivation:
Industrial Policy trees are in a weird place. The previous 6 trees all have really strong character, for me. But then you get to choice #3 and it feels the design goes downhill a bit.
I think some of this can be blamed on the fact these trees come later and so fewer people have cared about it compared to more pressing, early game problems.
In brief, Rationalism is king due to the high value of Science (and Great Scientists), and then Imperialism has a niche for Warmongers (and has some fun effects for them). Industry is left a bit behind; there are some rare use cases, and it...

• hokath
• Replies: 44
• Forum: Passed Proposals

 

[paul_soryu]

Does this mean both Artistry and Imperialism will see Hidden Antiquity Sites? I like this because Artistry -> Imperialism is a rare path, so you won't receive this bonus twice most of the time, and it allows for non-Artistry picks to make use of this mechanic, which is cool but underused, most often majority of Hidden Antiquity Sites are still not dug up when a game ends. Also I may be wrong but from what I observed there's actually usually more Hidden Sites than there are common ones.

I like this, there's not a lot of changes and they seem fun. One question though is why no +2 or +1 Science on Forts? They are fun to spam all over your huge land, do you think with +2 Culture and Border Growth Points they'll still be desirable to spam? I do understand that Citadels and Manufactories got +2 Science, but they can't be spammed. It might subtract a little too much Science from Imperialism when it needs it to compete with other policy trees.

 

[hokath]

I don't believe it is possible at the moment to have it on two policies, no. It is determined by PolicyReveal on Resources table, and then you have to also edit the GlobalArchaeologistDigSites.lua file.

Maybe @Recursive can tell you about the hidden sites, he has been working with that code recently.
But what I've observed is that Artistry actually gives this weird pressure where you unlock sites and then (if you have it) scramble for the hidden ones because they are so valuable. Then, other people take the normal ones.
This leads to a big difference between if only 1 civ has Artistry and if multiple do.
Put on Imperialism, it will at least be that the first person to finish Imperialism has some space to try get some, whilst other civs such as those with only Artistry can concentrate on making Artifacts and Landmarks (which Artistry boosts).

One question though is why no +2 or +1 Science on Forts?

I'd have to go back to the proposal thread but it was like that and got changed. I think it was maybe too strong?
The 20%->30% gives a lot more science than culture generally (because a lot of culture comes from guilds etc.)
In principle it could be some other numbers, but since Exploitation already has a very large amount of Science, I think Culture is preferred. (it also interacts with Tourism generation)

 

[paul_soryu]

I don't believe it is possible at the moment to have it on two policies, no.

Oh okay, it is just not stated clearly that Artistry loses this ability. Wouldn't Artistry need to be buffed a little more than in your other proposal to compensate for the loss of this ability?

But what I've observed is that Artistry actually gives this weird pressure where you unlock sites and then (if you have it) scramble for the hidden ones because they are so valuable. Then, other people take the normal ones.

Isn't it the other way around? There's usually not a lot of civ who can see Hidden Sites (sometimes it's just me alone), so for me priority is taking normal ones from everyone else, and then hidden ones. Do you mean that Hidden Sites are more valuable due to those "ancient scripture" sites where you can get 30k instant Culture or something? I kinda forgot about them.

 

[hokath]

Yes that's what I mean about how it is very different if it's just you versus if several people have it.
Ancient Scripture is the big selling point of the effect, it is equivalent to bulbing a Great Writer (!)

 

[azum4roll]

That's why I said it's a big nerf to Artistry. Both the artifact loss and culture loss.

 

[Bromar1]

I like the idea of moving hidden sites to Imperialism but I feel like moving that all the way to finisher is a little late. Would it make sense to move it to one of the earlier policy unlocks?

 

[Stalker0]

Moving the hidden sites away from Artistry is criminal, its like the main thing you do with that tree later in the game! Its the culture and tourism tree, what is imperalism players going to be doing with hidden sites?

 

[hokath]

The gameplay benefit is GWriter-Bulbs of Culture that scales with your control of the world's area. This helps resist Tourism pressure.
(The bonus was originally on Imperialism)
Then there is the rat race thing I talked about.

I can see this is a bit too many moving parts so I will remove the Hidden Sites part and we can discuss it separately at the next congress, should this pass.

 

[hokath]

I sponsor this

 

[redrum68]

• Colonialism
  • +2 Science and +1 Culture from Barracks, Armories, Bastion Fort, Military Academies, Forts, and Citadels.
    I really don't like these policies where they boost buildings you obviously already have by now. You better werk!
  • Each unique Global Monopoly modifier is increased by an additional 10% if it's percentage-based, or +3 otherwise.
  • Now +2 Science, Culture, and Great Admiral Points Citadels and Manufactories
    Nice symmetry with each of the 3 main GPTI having a buff in each tree
• Exploitation
  • +2 Food and +1 Production from Farms, Camps, and Plantations.
  • +1 Production and Science from Coasts, Lakes, and Oceans.
  • Gains +3 Food, Production, and Border Growth on Luxury Resources
    Luxuries are concentrated in the regions, so you get most out of this if you've taken over another civ
    BGP creates a synergy with Authority and other Border Expand effects the fits Imperalism's flavor
• Martial Law
  • No Gold Maintenance from Garrisons.
  • +1 Happiness and +4 Culture for each Garrison.
  • +2 Culture and Border Growth Points to Forts
  • -30% (up from -20%) Yield penalties of Puppeted Cities.

This seems like a pretty significant nerf to Imperialism overall. You now have to spend a lot more production to get the colonialism yields. Fort bonus went from 2 science and 1 culture to 2 culture and 2 border growth. Now longer has a farm bonus which if they are actually made decent is the most spammable improvement that got a bonus. While I tend to agree with the direction, this seems like a big nerf to arguably the weakest industrial tree.

 

[paul_soryu]

Now longer has a farm bonus which if they are actually made decent is the most spammable improvement that got a bonus.

I never considered "+2 Food and +1Production from Farms, Camps, and Plantations" a huge bonus, and I don't think it will be that good if Farms are buffed, it's still just more Food. It strangely gives Imperialism a boost to growing cities, which I don't think it needs, especially in puppets which you are supposed to exploit after conquering them, not help them grow. The boost, while thematic, is also strangely conditional, you might just not have any Plantation and Camp resources. That said, I personally don't mind it because I tend to take into consideration what tile improvements and how many forests I have when I'm choosing between Industry and Imperialism. I think the choice between Industry and Imperialism being map-dependent isn't bad and actually kinda fun, but I don't mind it changed either. Bonus on Luxuries seems to be enough to compensate, but all it does is it makes the same bonuses practically 100% consistent. It also encourages you to annex cities with a lot of Luxuries which I think is fun.

Fort bonus went from 2 science and 1 culture to 2 culture and 2 border growth.

Yeah, I can't see this as anything but a nerf. +2 Science on Manufactories isn't enough to compensate. The proposed changes already include +1 Culture to Forts, Citadels, and +2 Culture to Manufactories, all of which automatically give BGP. I don't get what's the reasoning behind increasing Culture and decreasing Science output.

I don't like Border Growth Points bonuses because they have no synergy with Imperialism and the only other tree they have synergy with is Authority, and later Autocracy, which makes this bonus too dependent on going full war from the start to the end, otherwise it's just not meaningful.

 

[Alpakinator]

Noticeable nerf to Imperialism, the weakest tier 3 tree. Better design (less means less overlap with rationalism and industry) but worse balancing. Lack of farm and plantation and camp buffs feels bad, but idk why.

 

[Stalker0]

I am curious for people voting yes, what is driving your decision on this one. Do you think imperalism should be nerfed, is there a specific change you like that is the core of your desire?

 

[ElliotS]

I am curious for people voting yes, what is driving your decision on this one. Do you think imperalism should be nerfed, is there a specific change you like that is the core of your desire?

I voted no. My guess is that people want a change, and don't realize that this is a nerf and doesn't address most of the problems people want fixed based on the thread in general.

 

[Legen]

I voted Yea, so here's my rationale:

• +2 Food and +1 Production from Farms, Camps, and Plantations.
• Gains +3 Food, Production, and Border Growth on Luxury Resources

Ignoring the BGP, if I value food and production equally, then 1 luxury tile = 2 farm/camp/plantation tiles in terms of boosts. If I value production way more than food (generally the case), then 1 luxury ~= 3 farm/camp/plantation tiles. Getting the same boost with less population is worthy on its own right, since it frees population to work other boosted tiles/specialists not covered by this policy (notably Engineers, which this proposal indirectly buffs with a boost to Manufactories).
Less RNG is a plus, luxury placement RNG is less of an issue than the RNG behind which improvement is required by the resources you're stuck with.
Thematically, a boost to luxuries is also more in line with Imperialism's focus on securing monopolies.
Side benefit, this change is more friendly to GPTIs and unique improvements in general. Civs with UIs and/or high GPTI generation (e.g. Persia) tend to deprioritize regular improvements. And even if your civ doesn't have an UI, you sometimes conquer cities from a civ that does.

• +2 Science and +1 Culture from Barracks, Armories, Bastion Fort, Military Academies, Forts, and Citadels.
• Now +2 Science, Culture, and Great Admiral Points Citadels and Manufactories
• +2 Culture and Border Growth Points to Forts

Bastion Fort requirement is a nerf, but a justifiable one.
Forts are not particularly good tiles to work even with current Imperialism, 1 less science on them won't matter most of the time.
The stronger bonuses to Citadels and Manufactories are actually noteworthy, especially given that Imperialism gears you to conquer cities; you don't have to focus heavily on Engineers to benefit, chances are that you'll conquer (if not already did) cities with some Manufactories along the way. Same for Citadels, your enemies are bound to steal some land from you anyway (or whoever they fought before), may as well have something to really look forward to when that sh** happens.

-30% (up from -20%) Yield penalties of Puppeted Cities.

Noticeable benefit, it may be more than enough to make Puppet heavy gameplay on par with heavy annexing. I remember that there was a time when their penalty was at -70% (instead of the current -80%), people complained that puppets were too good to the point that annexing wasn't attractive enough.
Imperialism gave a +20% additive modifier at the time. Raising it to +30% could bring that back, albeit at a later timing (locked behind more policies, which I find justifiable), and open puppet heavy gameplay as a comparable one to heavy annexing in its own right.
This is also the rationale behind my (9-127) proposal, in the "All things Puppets" voting thread, naturally I'd apply it here as well.

Noteworthy, this proposal is synergistic with (9-061) Manufactory and Academy Changes. If that proposal passes (and looks like it will), placing a Manufactory on a luxury tile (instead of random placements for adjacency boosts) would be particularly common, and would result in very powerful tiles if this Imperialism proposal also passes. +3 +2 +5 BGP on one citizen, instead of the current +2+1 on many, is very strong and frees population to work on something else, like Engineers (more Manufactories), other GPTIs, water tiles (which Imperialism also boosts), an UI from your civ... or whatever has those yields you desperately need in order to fix your empire's Unhappiness, a very common and realistic scenario for warmongers.

 

[Stalker0]

I voted Yea, so here's my rationale:


Ignoring the BGP, if I value food and production equally, then 1 luxury tile = 2 farm/camp/plantation tiles in terms of boosts. If I value production way more than food (generally the case), then 1 luxury ~= 3 farm/camp/plantation tiles. Getting the same boost with less population is worthy on its own right, since it frees population to work other boosted tiles/specialists not covered by this policy (notably Engineers, which this proposal indirectly buffs with a boost to Manufactories).
Less RNG is a plus, luxury placement RNG is less of an issue than the RNG behind which improvement is required by the resources you're stuck with.
Thematically, a boost to luxuries is also more in line with Imperialism's focus on securing monopolies.
Side benefit, this change is more friendly to GPTIs and unique improvements in general. Civs with UIs and/or high GPTI generation (e.g. Persia) tend to deprioritize regular improvements. And even if your civ doesn't have an UI, you sometimes conquer cities from a civ that does.


Bastion Fort requirement is a nerf, but a justifiable one.
Forts are not particularly good tiles to work even with current Imperialism, 1 less science on them won't matter most of the time.
The stronger bonuses to Citadels and Manufactories are actually noteworthy, especially given that Imperialism gears you to conquer cities; you don't have to focus heavily on Engineers to benefit, chances are that you'll conquer (if not already did) cities with some Manufactories along the way. Same for Citadels, your enemies are bound to steal some land from you anyway (or whoever they fought before), may as well have something to really look forward to when that sh** happens.


Noticeable benefit, it may be more than enough to make Puppet heavy gameplay on par with heavy annexing. I remember that there was a time when their penalty was at -70% (instead of the current -80%), people complained that puppets were too good to the point that annexing wasn't attractive enough.
Imperialism gave a +20% additive modifier at the time. Raising it to +30% could bring that back, albeit at a later timing (locked behind more policies, which I find justifiable), and open puppet heavy gameplay as a comparable one to heavy annexing in its own right.
This is also the rationale behind my (9-127) proposal, in the "All things Puppets" voting thread, naturally I'd apply it here as well.

Noteworthy, this proposal is synergistic with (9-061) Manufactory and Academy Changes. If that proposal passes (and looks like it will), placing a Manufactory on a luxury tile (instead of random placements for adjacency boosts) would be particularly common, and would result in very powerful tiles if this Imperialism proposal also passes. +3 +2 +5 BGP on one citizen, instead of the current +2+1 on many, is very strong and frees population to work on something else, like Engineers (more Manufactories), other GPTIs, water tiles (which Imperialism also boosts), an UI from your civ... or whatever has those yields you desperately need in order to fix your empire's Unhappiness, a very common and realistic scenario for warmongers.

Thank you, I appreciate that breakdown. I'll summary your post for my understanding.

1) Moving yields from improvements to luxuries reinforces the theme of imperalism (more lux = more good), and actually reduces RNG because your saying its more likely to get a lux or two than to have the amount of farms/plantations to generate the same bonus. Or of course on maps where you have few farms or plantations and get no benefit.

An interesting point. Whether the math checks out or not on the balance of it, the point about it being even more lucractive to seek out luxuries does fit the theme of imperalsim, so I can respect the point.

2) Forts are worked too infrequently. So the nerf for them in science is irrelevant (as is the buff to fort yields they would get in the rework).

I can agree with this, fort tiles are pretty lame even with imperalism bonuses.

3) The yields to citadels and manufactories is notable.

On this one I will disagree. Simply bput, there are just not that many GPTIs in a given game, not enough that a few science and culture per citadel and manuf will move the needle. The only yields here that is noteworthy are the Great Admiral points. Being able to generate an extra lets say 12 admiral GPPs every turn is quite a notable improvement.

4) The Puppet boost is quite a buff.

This is also true. I personally disagree with that buff because I think puppets is the one thing Imperalism already does well, it doesn't need to do more for puppets that's not its problem. It really needs to do better in other areas. But its 100% fair to say this is a sizable buff for certain styles of Imperalism play.



One of the untalked about changes is in the tree structure. Exploitation got moved, whether that's a buff or nerf depends on your play style. Martial Law has definately been nerfed....was that really needed because of the boost to puppets, hard to say, but definately a nerf.

 

[redrum68]

2) Forts are worked too infrequently. So the nerf for them in science is irrelevant (as is the buff to fort yields they would get in the rework).

I can agree with this, fort tiles are pretty lame even with imperalism bonuses.

Hard disagree. Forts with imperialism right now are often excellent tiles to work.

 

[Lystrin]

I voted yes - I think the proposal is more thematically coherent, with its buffs to luxury resource tiles matching the hunt for monopolies and with the tile improvement yields replaced, and decided in this case that it's a good enough improvement in design to forgo the unneeded nerf to fort yields (I agree here with redrum - imperialism forts are very good, being a low-food improvement that you can spam on every terrain, making cities in relatively bare locations able to pump out yields without generating too much unhappiness with specialists).

It is a very soft yes though, since I belive the inclusion of BGP on forts and luxuries very unecessary, OP states "BGP creates a synergy with Authority and other Border Expand effects the fits Imperalism's flavor" but imo authority and imperialism are waaayyyyy to synergistic as is and could use a bit of distance. the yields from garrisons alone make imperialism most synergistic with authority since the best way to fill those garrisons without using production & supply is via authority's conscript units, that you can very comfortably put on alert in your internal cities and forget about them entirely. I think this proposal did nerf imperialism a tiny bit, but at the end of the day if you were going to pick imperialism you're still picking imperialism in most cases...

It's worth mentioning that hokath's modmod version has hidden sites moved from artistry to imperialism - but the proposed version had that cut out without any compensation buff.

 

[paul_soryu]

I agree with redrum, 2 Forts with Imperialism are equal to ~1 Academy, but also give 2 Culture and some BGP, how is that a lame tile? If it was giving Food and Prod it would be as good as a Unique Tile Improvement of some civ. You just spam them everywhere and you get 2-3 Academies worth of Science per city.