[Vote] (9-41) Religion III: "Per Follower" Beliefs

[hokath]

Motivation:
There's a set of beliefs that give yields per follower. They have variable caps on them, and their balance is quite mysterious to me. Then Creativity has a random +2 Faith when working a Specialist on there as well.
I would like to standardize these scalers somewhat and add a single secondary effect to give more interest and flexibility: you see the follower on a foreign religion and think ooo, maybe this could be worth spreading to this or that city, even.
These compete with Buildings and, while they do not cost Faith immediately, they are quite weak early-on in particular.
The caps I see no reason for; some are hard to hit at 18 followers, others are at 10... I got nuffin'.

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Proposal:

• Thrift
  • 1 Gold per 2 Followers
  • no cap
  • +1 Gold from Bonus Resources
• Asceticism
  • 1 Food per 2 Followers
  • no cap
  • +4 Food if you have a Specialist
• Diligence
  • 1 Prod per 2 Followers
  • no cap
  • +2 Prod for each trade route to/from the City
• Creativity
  • 1 Culture per 3 Followers
  • no cap
  • +1 Culture from Great Works in the City
• Scholarship
  • 1 Science per 3 Followers
  • no cap
  • 2 Science from Universities in the City
• Cooperation
  • +2 Food added to the existing Specialist production bonus
    It's clear doing this audit that this bonus is on the weak side

---

Implementation Notes:
This uses only existing database code.
Can be played here.

 

[stormfallen]

Communalism isn't a belief; did you mean Cooperation?

 

[FPXI]

Wasn't there a problem long, long ago, where uncapped Thrift was completely busted or am I having a fever dream?

 

[paul_soryu]

Caps were always strange to me too, perhaps in the past cities had much higher population and so these beliefs needed caps? They are strange because most of them are practically impossible to reach anyway, 30 Followers to get 15 Prod means you need 35+ Population in a city, most of my cities never reach even 30 Pop.

Creativity

• 1 Culture per 3 Followers
• no cap
• +1 Culture from Great Works in the City

The secondary bonus favors Tradition, but it already has a lot of Culture, and I think Creativity is best when you go Progress because you lack flat Culture to counter Boredom. I think that's also the reason why it currently gives +2 Faith if there is a Specialist in a city — with Progress you probably can afford only one Specialist per city and you are encouraged to do so. Don't know why it's Faith though, and not Culture.

Asceticism

• 1 Food per 2 Followers
• no cap
• +4 Food if you have a Specialist

I think currently Ascetism has 1 Food per 1 Follower because Food is bad and only gets worse as the game goes on, I think it wouldn't be unbalanced if it stayed 1:1. 20-30 Food in a Capital in late game is good but not really game breaking, iirc it is ± the same value as a single Trade Route.

Thrift

• 1 Gold per 2 Followers
• no cap
• +1 Gold from Bonus Resources

I would say +1 Gold on Bonus Resources would give too much Gold, but Thrift competes directly with Cathedrals which also give a lot of Gold, so I think that's a good balance.

Current Scholarship is very good and I'm fine with a little a nerf.

Wasn't there a problem long, long ago, where uncapped Thrift was completely busted or am I having a fever dream?

I remember something like that too, but here the ratio is changed to 1:2, so it couldn't be that gamebreaking, right? I guess the current design for some reason favors getting a lot of GPT quickly, maybe it was deemed too slow and weak to have 1:2 ratio similar to Prod? After all, Gold isn't equal to Prod. I think +1 Gold on Bonus Resources is a good exchange for nerfing a ratio, it'll still give a lot of Gold quickly, but won't scale endlessly to unreasonable numbers.

 

[azum4roll]

Changing the code so it can give 0.5 production per follower (currently it rounds down so 1 per 2) would be a small buff.

 

[paul_soryu]

Changing the code so it can give 0.5 production per follower (currently it rounds down so 1 per 2) would be a small buff.

Pantheons work like this already, so I think these Beliefs should too

 

[hokath]

Communalism isn't a belief; did you mean Cooperation?

Yes, thanks. Communalism is the name in the code, I imagine.

Wasn't there a problem long, long ago, where uncapped Thrift

Yes, I can see why a cap was placed on the ones where you get 1:1 yield
(these don't exist anymore)
I guess then it was copied to the others as some kind of symmetry, but where 6 culture is equivalent to 15 (!) science.

 

[azum4roll]

Creativity was deemed OP when it was 1 per 2. It was nerfed to 1 per 3 but was too weak, so the faith from having specialist was added.

 

[Stalker0]

Motivation:
Then Creativity has a random +2 Faith when working a Specialist on there as well.

Nothing random about it. We bounced between 1 c for 2 followers (way too strong) and 1 c for 3 followers (too weak) for a while, and then someone came up with this idea as a nice solid middle ground....which has worked well imo.

 

[redrum68]

Nothing random about it. We bounced between 1 c for 2 followers (way too strong) and 1 c for 3 followers (too weak) for a while, and then someone came up with this idea as a nice solid middle ground....which has worked well imo.

My guess is he means it feels random because its not the same yield. Most of the per pop beliefs are just a single yield type.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I agree to most changes. Esp. the science nerf that brings it to the level of culture. I only think thrift would give too little gold compared to diligence.

 

[stormfallen]

Now that culture is fractional, there's nothing stopping us from trying 1 culture per 2.5 pop (or 0.4 per pop), is there?

 

[Stalker0]

My quick and dirty on these:

Ascetism: Overall I think its a nerf, but not a big one. But its also one I rarely take (food = meh afterall).
Thrift: Generally a nerf.
Diligence: Decent buff....and its already one of the better ones, I don't see the need to buff this further (and we already have the ITR boosting religion).
Scholarship: Small nerf, probably ok.
Creativity: Hmm....probably a decent nerf overall.
Cooperation: This one I like, small buff likely warranted.

 

[azum4roll]

Now that culture is fractional, there's nothing stopping us from trying 1 culture per 2.5 pop (or 0.4 per pop), is there?

Yields from this particular table get rounded down before being passed to the yield functions.

 

[stormfallen]

Yields from this particular table get rounded down before being passed to the yield functions.

Is that changeable or hardcoded?

 

[pineappledan]

It’s changeable by just using the uncapped yields on pop function like hokath is suggesting

 

[pineappledan]

All of these scalers are also used by enhancers? Are they just going to be doubled up on?

Persia shouldn’t be changed for this. You should ask for DLL support to add yields to annexed cities directly.

 

[azum4roll]

It’s changeable by just using the uncapped yields on pop function like hokath is suggesting

There isn't one.

 

[hokath]

I sponsor this

 

[redrum68]

Thrift

• 1 Gold per 2 Followers
• no cap
• +1 Gold from Bonus Resources

I generally support these changes but this might be a bit harsh on Thrift. On average, you probably work like 2 bonus resources per city? So 2 gold per city compared to the others seems kind of low.