[Complex] (9-NS) Belated 4UC Reproposal I: Venice

[pineappledan]

The congress immediately after 4UC integration is my opportunity to basically counterpropose myself, so here we go!

Spoiler Current Venice components :

UM1 - Great Galleass (replaces Galleass):
available at Gunpowder (obsoletes at Dynamite & can upgrades to frigate)
250 (+75) production
4 movement
20 (+6) CS, 30 (+6) RCS
1 Range
Bombardment I
"Can move after attacking"
"Shallow Draft"
"Cannot melee attack"
"Naval Inaccuracy"

UM2 - Fusta (Range Naval class):
available at Guilds
125 Production Cost
No Supply Cost
5 Movement Points
14 (same) CS, 21 (-3) RCS
1 Range
"Can move after attacking"
"Shallow Draft"
"Cannot melee attack"

Update UNWs such that
Rialto District gets:
+3 Food and +3Gold for each Bank on empire
Arsenale di Venezia gets:
+2 Production and Science for each Bank on empire
Murano Glassworks gets:
+2 Culture and Tourism for each Bank on empire

Spoiler Proposed Venice Components :

UM1 - Great Galleass (replaces Galleass):

available at Guilds (obsoletes at Dynamite & can upgrades to Cruiser)​

250 (+75) production​

4 movement​

18 (+4) CS, 28 (+4) RCS​

1 Range​

On construction, a free Fusta appears in or near the city​

"Boarding Party II"​

"Can move after attacking"​

"Shallow Draft"​

"Cannot melee attack"​

"Naval Inaccuracy"​

Spoiler Fusta details :

Fusta (free standalone unit, only available from constructing a Great galleass)​

-1 (ie can't be built)​

Upgrades to Frigate (but since the unit costs -1 it will be expensive)​

4 movement​

Does not cost War Supply (but does cost maintenance; lost on upgrade)​

12 (-2) CS, 20 (-4) RCS (-2 CS and -4 RCS compared to a normal galleass)​

1 Range​

"Sentry I"​

"Can move after attacking"​

"Shallow Draft"​

"Cannot melee attack"​

"Naval Inaccuracy"​

UB - Banco Giro (replaces Bank):

Available at Banking​

500 Production Cost​

+3 Gold +3 (up from 2 )​

2 Merchant Specialist slots (up from 1)​

15% of unit purchases and building investments using Gold in this city are converted to Science​

+3Gold to Caravansary and Customs House in this City​

+3 Food and +3Gold to Rialto District for each Banco Giro on empire​

+2 Production and Science to Arsenale di Venezia for each Banco Giro on empire​

+2 Culture and Tourism to Murano Glassworks for each Banco Giro on empire​

2% of Gold generated in this city each turn is converted into Great Merchant Points​

Gold: +3 ​

Silver: +1 //​

Gems: +1 +2 ​

Changes to other components:
Bonus yields to Rialto, Arsenale and Murano for each bank on empire are removed (or rather, they are moved onto the UB)

Justification:
The winning proposal from 4UC integration can be found here.

• The original 4UC proposal was vetoed because it added 3 independent components to Venice instead of 2. This gave Venice 5UCs on the civ select screen. With this new proposal, the Great Galleass conforms to these rules. We have precedent of sub-components being nested inside other components. Other examples of this include unique great tile improvements and Venice's own 3 national wonders gated behind a unique component.
• The proposal that passed integration added 2 military UUs and no civilian bonus. It is my personal opinion that the passed proposal was not in the spirit of 4UC integration, which was to add 1 military unit and 1 civilian bonus to each civilization
• I opted to change the free promotion on the Great Galleass to boarding party II because this more closely reflects the history of these ships. Also, giving line promotions for free is too powerful because of how much XP it saves you on late promotion unlocks and limits player choice by forcing them down 1 promotion line.
• The Banco Giro reflects an underrepresented aspect of Venetian history: That they contributed in major ways to the invention of central banking and modern accounting systems
• The Banco Giro differentiates and boosts the 3 unique wonders in a way that is simple to code and kinda fun.
• Most importantly, it adds something that I think is sorely missing from Venice's existing kit: a bonus to the generation of MoVs
• Adding the ability to have free units spawn from other unit production/birth opens up many neat design ideas for modmods and things like Great People births.
• Adding a yield to GPP converter also sounds pretty neat for forward compatibility as a modder tool.

 

[Recursive]

This gave Venice 5UCs on the civ select screen. With this new proposal, the Great Galleass conforms to these rules. We have precedent of sub-components being nested inside other components. Other examples of this include unique great tile improvements and Venice's own 3 national wonders gated behind a unique component.

On construction, a free Fusta appears in or near the city

Fusta (free standalone unit, only available from constructing a Great galleass)

Bureaucrat pineappledan, you are technically correct. The best kind of correct!

I hereby promote you to Grade 37.

 

[Chinag]

I'm in favor for this proposal, to keep the 1 military UC / 1 civilian UC balance. I do worry that this is a noticeable buff to a civ that I always find perfoming quite well in AI hands. That's something to keep an eye out for next congress though

 

[FPXI]

this is my new favorite proposal. I share the concern about this being a decent buff, but that doesn't' stop me from supporting.

 

[Alpakinator]

While it's a decent economic and strong 'volume of full xp ships produced per turn' buff, it nerfs late game Venice power by replacing Bombardment I with Boarding Party II.

It's cause one of the meta strategies is building/buying full XP Great Galleases while delaying researching Cruisers and having them with Logistics straight form production (Autocracy) or only 10xp away from it when buying with Freedom. Logistics restores ability to move after attacking which is extremely valuable for high movement units like all ships.
And nerfs Fusta and G. Galleas as well.

But i like this proposal more than current state because:

• it reverses the nerf Venice suffered during 4UC integration, while Venice is widely considered weak (I think it's S tier but anyway ).
• Bianco Giro is important historically.
• Boarding Party II is very thematic for Great Galleas since it has big front and aft "castles" for defending against boarding.
• And 2 units per turn from Venice fits their historically very high ship building capacity.

It's certainly not ideal. It doesn't address two current issues in my mind:

• Fusta has no fun interaction with great galleases,
• Fustas no supply part combined with Venice high supply due to no Empire Size penalty makes them even more snowbally as their army can grow more than linearly with the amount of conquered cities.

About how universal promotions like Boarding Party II work for ranged units:
+15% bonus means +15%when defending against melee attack, +15%when attacking and +15% when defending against ranged attacks. Meanwhile Bombardment I only gives +10%

when attacking (+40% vs cities).

 

[pineappledan]

Coding a fun interaction between 1 specific unit and another sounds like a nightmare. It’s enough that Fusta can add a little more map presence and vision on Venice’s trade network for cheap and set up flanks etc

 

[Alpakinator]

True.

Btw. one "issue" with Venice at standard speed is that it's easy to have more /t than the cost of units/buildings. 250 is easy to reach, so rn. and with this proposal passing there's this weird incentive to avoidin Venice cause it'd be wasted in the overflow anyway.To remove it, and encourage people to aim for high I'd propose raising the Great Galleas cost to around 300, maybe 350, and give a buff to either G. Galleas or Fusta. I'd be another buff to Venice in practice though.

 

[pineappledan]

It’s already 50% more expensive than the base unit, my dude. You want me to go higher?

 

[hokath]

If this passes we will have to rethink the Southern European component in 5/6UC, which is also a Bank replacement.
In that case, perhaps we can use the icon here instead?

It is by @gwennog

 

[pineappledan]

Looks cool. I like it. Preferable to another non-descript building facade.
Also, using art made by community members rather than pulling them from other mods is always a selling point.

 

[paul_soryu]

there's this weird incentive to avoidin Venice cause it'd be wasted in the overflow anyway

I thought overflow in Civ5 was retained endlessly for the next production object?

 

[Alpakinator]

Ooh

I thought overflow in Civ5 was retained endlessly for the next production object?

Ooh, I hope that's the case! Gotta check I thought it caps at like 2-3x production.

 

[paul_soryu]

Ooh

Ooh, I hope that's the case! Gotta check I thought it caps at like 2-3x production.

I didn't check, I just don't think I ever hit it

 

[azum4roll]

Why does the proposed Great Galleass still upgrade into Cruiser?

Ooh, I hope that's the case! Gotta check I thought it caps at like 2-3x production.

It caps at 1 turn of production or the cost of the produced item, whichever is lower (IIRC).

I think the gold to merchant points is new code.

 

[pineappledan]

fixed

 

[Alpakinator]

but since the unit costs -1 it costs more to upgrade than buying a frigate outright

Is this a special feature of -1 units specifically? Cause frigate costs 375 so upgade should cost "only" 375 + 1 + 10 = 386

 

[hokath]

I think the gold to merchant points is new code.

Yeah must be. It could be done with Great General Points or Great Admiral Points but not Merchant.
The 5/6 UC when I wanted this outcome I just used a moderate % points increase (and local merchant buff)

Pdan's OP has 2 Merchant slots, so it's most of the time actually (already) more points than the 20% or 25% buff I did (unless you have lots of other sources) but in return you have to work 1 more Merchant

 

[pineappledan]

Yes two new abilities please:
Unit_UnitFromUnitProduction (Type, FreeUnit, ProductionOnly, PurchaseOnly, FullXP)

Building_GPPFromYieldPercentx100 (Type, YieldIn, GreatPersonType, Amount)

 

[azum4roll]

Unit_UnitFromUnitProduction (Type, FreeUnit, ProductionOnly, PurchaseOnly, FullXP)

Right, XP is a problem so we can't just simply spawn a free unit. And then there's the Draft Registration special case to handle.

 

[pineappledan]

If 0 it copies the XP of the base unit
If 1 it gives full xp as if it was built itself. This is so you don’t get 0xp if you give a free military unit on a civilian unit birth (eg, a great person)