(9-WD) Japan tweaks: martial abilities available earlier

[Legen]

Motivation
Japan's kit has four issues that this proposal aims to fix:

1. Timing mismatch with Authority, the social tree most aligned with Japan's design of rewarding fighting.
2. Heavy dependence on iron, but lacks proper tools to secure and compete for it in the first two eras.
3. Bloat yields from sources unrelated to Japan's core gameplay of rewarding fighting and generating great cultural people (namely, yields from Defense buildings).
4. Inflexible and overdetermined tech/pantheon choices.

These can be addressed by moving the Dojo's two core abilities (the unique promotion and the yields from combat XP) back to Ancient Era. Here, it is done by moving one of these abilities to the UA and replacing the Dojo for an unique Shrine with the other ability (and a bonus +1, usual for such an early UB).

In exchange for the earlier timing, Japan loses the late game scaling provided by the yields on Defense buildings (originally intended as an aid for Ancient Era, covering the absence of any other early bonuses, but scales to up to 5 per city), plus the Dojo's extra supply and most of its large bonus yields (+3+3) over the Armory's base yields. This means the late game scaling per city is down up to a 7 3 5 and 1 supply; a hefty loss for wide game play, and arguably enough to justify letting Japan enjoy its core abilities two eras earlier.

Ultimately, I think this results in a healthier and leaner design; Japan already has the focus on great cultural people for their late scaling, and I'd prefer to see this civ deriving its late power from how it supports this focus (currently the Kabuki, potentially a Torii proposal in the future). And while some people may argue that we could see less rushing civs, I think Japan shouldn't be one of these non-rushing civs; the four issues above are all consequences of such major parts of Japan's kit being locked to Medieval Era.

---

Proposal

• UA has the following changes:
  • Loses "+1 Culture and Faith from Defense Buildings."
  • Gains "Units generate 1.4 Culture and Science for each XP earned in combat." (same as Dojo, applies to all military units)
    • Can be implemented as a promotion. Suggested name: "Go Rin no Sho" (The Book of Five Rings, by Miyamoto Musashi).
• Dojo replaced by Jinja, an Unique Shrine with the following unique traits over the base Shrine (changes underlined):
  • Base Yields: 1 2
  • Free Eight Virtues of Bushido Promotion for all existing and future eligible Units trained in this City. (same as Dojo, including unit types)

Spoiler Suggested image for Jinja's icon :

Omiwa Shrine, said to be the oldest existing Shinto shrine, and predates written history in Japan.

---

Implementation Notes
This uses existing database code.
Requires artwork.

 

[stormfallen]

I don't think this level of early culture and science is balanceable unless the yields are negligible. We had this bonus on the UA before and it was so broken that it got moved to the Dojo.

 

[Legen]

I don't think this level of early culture and science is balanceable unless the yields are negligible. We had this bonus on the UA before and it was so broken that it got moved to the Dojo.

It is partially balanced by the 45 XP cap on barbarians. And the reason it was unbalanced before was due to both it applying to exploration XP (which led to scouts carrying the civ through the entire Ancient and Classical Eras) and the AI XP bonuses having exponential benefits with the old implementation (nowadays, the AI bonuses no longer have such effect with Japan's yields).

 

[redrum68]

Gains "Units generate 1.4 Culture and Science for each XP earned in combat." (same as Dojo)

Would this only apply to melee, gunpowder, mounted and armored like it is currently or are you suggesting it would be all military units now? I think best to clarify.

 

[paul_soryu]

Timing mismatch with Authority, the social tree most aligned with Japan's design of rewarding fighting.

I solved it by going Progress instead of Authority, developing as an avarage civ initially and then rushing Dojos and Samurai (I think you could even avoid Writing, but I didn't do that). Going lower path sets you up for some pre-made units to join Samurai when they come out. I actually like how it doesn't force you into an early war, which so many warmongering Authority-picking civs do, they all play roughly the same early on. Current Japan allows you to "set up" before going all in, and if you lack Iron... well, that's part of the setup. It is a little awkward though as when you unlock Steel, you want to build Dojos before Samurai, so Samurai get delayed for a bit.

Bloat yields from sources unrelated to Japan's core gameplay of rewarding fighting and generating great cultural people (namely, yields from Defense buildings).

Here I agree, I actually even took Defender of the Faith to enhance all my defensive buildings even more, while Japan doesn't really need them and is constantly on the offensive. Though, there is a nice synergy with Imperialism's Civilizing Mission, which keeps all defensive buildings so you instantly get some Culture and Faith per Turn.

Inflexible and overdetermined tech/pantheon choices.

The most inflexible thing for Japan is Hero Worship, it would be stupid to not take it.

 

[hokath]

It's very minor, but if you swap the two promotions then you add a minor delay to possible yield gain.
Or, to make that effect larger, you could do unique forge instead (the more-swords crowd will love that)

 

[Legen]

Would this only apply to melee, gunpowder, mounted and armored like it is currently or are you suggesting it would be all military units now? I think best to clarify.

Same as Dojo does now, it generates those yields from all units.

 

[Legen]

It's very minor, but if you swap the two promotions then you add a minor delay to possible yield gain.
Or, to make that effect larger, you could do unique forge instead (the more-swords crowd will love that)

The 45 XP cap on barbarians, and having to train more units to benefit from earning combat XP, will in practice be the real limit on how much you get from these yields. A small delay from having to build a shrine won't change much, except to be an annoyance early on, when you see a barbarian but want to avoid fighting it until the Capital finishes the Jinja.

Having an unique forge doing that only makes it worse, as you then want to avoid fighting barbarians for about 40 turns, instead of a mere ~10 with the effect on the shrine.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I solved it by going Progress instead of Authority, developing as an avarage civ initially and then rushing Dojos and Samurai (I think you could even avoid Writing, but I didn't do that). Going lower path sets you up for some pre-made units to join Samurai when they come out. I actually like how it doesn't force you into an early war, which so many warmongering Authority-picking civs do, they all play roughly the same early on. Current Japan allows you to "set up" before going all in, and if you lack Iron... well, that's part of the setup. It is a little awkward though as when you unlock Steel, you want to build Dojos before Samurai, so Samurai get delayed for a bit.

Here I agree, I actually even took Defender of the Faith to enhance all my defensive buildings even more, while Japan doesn't really need them and is constantly on the offensive. Though, there is a nice synergy with Imperialism's Civilizing Mission, which keeps all defensive buildings so you instantly get some Culture and Faith per Turn.

The most inflexible thing for Japan is Hero Worship, it would be stupid to not take it.

Losing the faith from walls would make getting hero worship even harder.

 

[Legen]

Ceremonial Burial is really strong with Japan due to the amount of great cultural people the civ can generate. It is a strong alternative to Hero Worship; I don't think the Founder belief is as inflexible as Goddess of Protection right now.

You lose faith from walls with this proposal, but having an unique Shrine helps with founding merely due to being able to focus on shrines without falling behind on culture, relative to opening with Monuments in most or every city. You're also not forced to incur maintenance from having to set up walls in every city, leaving more gold for investing.

 

[azum4roll]

Minor detail, but having the yields on a promotion will cause units gifted to CS to retain it (they'll grow their borders sliiiiightly faster I guess). I personally hate all promotions on traits for this reason.

 

[FPXI]

I'm opposed because I like Japan's current timing. Instead of re-balancing Japan to make it fit authority we should look to do stuff elsewhere in the game to make it more viable to start a domination sweep later into the game.

 

[Stalker0]

1. Inflexible and overdetermined tech/pantheon choices.

Just noting, to me there is nothing wrong with this in general.

We have SO many civs, that its fine is some of them are more pidgeonholed then others.

Sometimes I want to play a diplo civ, and I'm almost certainly going to take statecraft. Sometimes I just want to war, I take a warmonger with authority. etc etc. With so many civs out there, its not a problem that many of them have an optimal policy/belief config for their playstyle. If you want to play something else....there are dozens more civs out there waiting for you.

 

[Legen]

Just noting, to me there is nothing wrong with this in general.

We have SO many civs, that its fine is some of them are more pidgeonholed then others.

Sometimes I want to play a diplo civ, and I'm almost certainly going to take statecraft. Sometimes I just want to war, I take a warmonger with authority. etc etc. With so many civs out there, its not a problem that many of them have an optimal policy/belief config for their playstyle. If you want to play something else....there are dozens more civs out there waiting for you.

I don't have much against it either, just a concern that it happens on a civ without early science bonuses. It was part of a feedback I intended to address regarding Japan. It's good to know some people think differently from that feedback.

I think I have a better direction for this civ than what I proposed here; it should address most of the issues I listed, while preserving Japan's current timing and late game scaling.

@Magi I'd like to withdraw this proposal, so I can make a different one that would conflict with it.

 

[hokath]

Sure thing.

Proposal Withdrawn

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.