A better wonder than Prora?

[Rob5000]

I was thinking about the choice of Prora as a wonder only accessible to and representative of Autocracy, and how a better choice might have been selected. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking the Autobahn might have been much better. Not only is it more famous, but it also doesn't come off as sinister as Prora (read this thread for more info about Prora and its quote: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=504192&highlight=prora)

The Autobahn could still provide happiness (maybe not as much as Prora, but still, who wouldn't be happy zipping across their empire at speeds over 80mph?), but maybe could also provide free roads or a reduction in maintenance. Just a thought.

Anyone else want to suggest some alternatives to the somewhat obscure Prora wonder?

 

[troublmaker]

Some structures in Germany have been denoted as German Nazi structures and are visible as tourist destinations so you can see what it was like in the Nazi Autocratic state. The autobahn however is just a road way. In the back of people's heads they associate concentration camps and lush nazi getaways with Nazism rather than the free way. After all, in most movies they show trains, not roads. All the roads seem to be destroyed.

 

[Rob5000]

Some structures in Germany have been denoted as German Nazi structures and are visible as tourist destinations so you can see what it was like in the Nazi Autocratic state. The autobahn however is just a road way. In the back of people's heads they associate concentration camps and lush nazi getaways with Nazism rather than the free way. After all, in most movies they show trains, not roads. All the roads seem to be destroyed.

Right, but IIRC the Autobahn was and is more than just a "roadway". Wasn't it the world's first superhighway?

The point i was trying to make is that Prora seems pretty dismal. And its just a resort, not the first, or the last, whereas the Autobahn was definitely an engineering feat and the first of its kind (if I am not mistaken). Also, in the thread I mentioned, someone brought up some very nice architecture iin Franco's fascist Spain. So there are definitely some better options out there than Prora

 

[caiman0815]

the kremlin is even more obscure than prora. I mean, kremlin was build by russian czars and has nothing to do with order in any way. I would consider following ideology-spec wonders:

Freedom - Statue of liberty as it is
Order - Palace of the sowjets http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_the_Soviets
Autocracy - Congress Grounds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_party_rally_grounds or Volkshalle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkshalle

 

[Rob5000]

the kremlin is even more obscure than prora. I mean, kremlin was build by russian czars and has nothing to do with order in any way. I would consider following ideology-spec wonders:

Freedom - Statue of liberty as it is
Order - Palace of the sowjets http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_the_Soviets
Autocracy - Congress Grounds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_party_rally_grounds or Volkshalle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkshalle

Agree with your choices on Auto and ORder - both could work (even though the Palace and Volkshalle are theoretical in the sense that they were never finished, I doubt that should matter - consider some of the Natural Wonders like King Solomon's Mines and the Fountain of youth - completely mythical).

However, I don't agree with your opinion that the Moscow Kremlin is more obscure than Prora - far from it. I think it was and still is well known. But, it is a bit obscure in terms of repping Order as kremlins were built well before Soviet rule was established. THe only reason I can think of is that the USSR kept its govt there.

 

[Csjbo08]

Idk why they didn't just put the Brandenburg Gate as the Autocracy wonder, while it is true that it wasn't built during the time of the Nazi's, it was used as a symbol. The Kremlin wasn't built during the time of the Soviets but it was still used.

 

[caiman0815]

However, I don't agree with your opinion that the Moscow Kremlin is more obscure than Prora - far from it. I think it was and still is well known. But, it is a bit obscure in terms of repping Order as kremlins were built well before Soviet rule was established. THe only reason I can think of is that the USSR kept its govt there.

sorry, english is not my native tongue, so obscure is maybe the wrong term. I meant "strange", not unknown

however, kremlin is a really bad choice for order. It was build centuries before order, and it is a defensive building (not a production building).

And yes, it was seat of the soviets; but it was also seat of the czars and it is seat of the former russian government. so its just the "palace" of the russian civ. do we have a white house wonder? a versailles wonder (ok would go because versaille isn't fench civ palace nowadays). a buckingham palace wonder? no. because they are just palaces of the civs, so why kremlin?

 

[bcaiko]

the kremlin is even more obscure than prora. I mean, kremlin was build by russian czars and has nothing to do with order in any way.

It's clear that the developers tried to give Order the Motherland Calls, but when that had to be scrapped for legal reasons, they moved Kremlin into Order and replaced the Kremlin's former abilities with the Red Fort.

 

[That Other Guy]

Autocracy's dying for something that lets you use enemy roads (like the commando promotion in civ4), and I've gotta say that the autobahn seems like an obvious choice.

 

[ahawk]

To be honest, I half-way expected to just see Brandenburg Gate become the Autocratic wonder.

Honestly, it would have worked out just fine that way, especially since Mother Motherland was not able to be used in the end for Order and they ultimately went with already in-game wonders for the other two ideologies.

 

[Pythakoreas]

Oh, I thought that Prora quote thread was going to disappear in a day, but it lead to some flame war ended by a moderator closing the thread. Since Brave New World announced that ideologies will play an important part, I already saw Statue of Liberty exclusive to Freedom and Kremlin exclusive to Order. As for Autocracy, I expected Brandenburg Gate.

 

[DerCivMeister]

To me, I can understand the Kremlin being the order wonder and the Prora resort being the autocracy wonder, but I kind of think the effects of the wonders should be reversed. I mean, I can appreciate that happiness can be hard to come by in a warmongering game, but the 50% extra production towards armor units seems more like something I would want when I adopt autocracy. And by the way, the Autobahn was built under the supervision of Hitler, the sort of figurehead of autocracy, but I don't think that would be good for a wonder. Also, for much of the Autobahn's early existence, the road was practically dead. Only the elite had cars until the original Volkswagen was introduced.

 

[Lexicus]

The icon for the Kremlin also isn't the actual Kremlin.
Maybe the Reichstag could be the Autocracy wonder?

 

[Arachnofiend]

Freedom: Statue of Liberty IS Freedom. Don't think they could have come up with a better pick if they tried.

Autocracy: I always have and still do advocate The Valley of the Fallen. Beautiful Spanish architecture that could conceivably be seen as a Wonder of the World. It's still a popular tourist site today, especially among Catholic visitors, much to the distress of the now Socialist Spanish government.

Order: The Motherland Calls was a great pick, it's a shame copyright issues forced it out. The other potential wonder that comes to mind is the Bulgarian Communist Party Headquarters. They could probably call it Buzludzha, after the mountain it resides on. The building looks decent enough from the outside, but the real wonder is the massive mosaic that spans the walls on the inside (one that is unfortunately beginning to fall apart due to age).

 

[Duponey]

Am I the only one finding the Prora a good Idea ? What I find a bit sad is to make such shortcuts: Autocracy = nazi, Order = Communism, Freedom = capitalism. It seems a bit reductive... And the worst is that "everyone" makes another link : autocracy = nazi = Germany.
The Autobahn is just a highway. It may seem great from other country but the only great thing with it is that it is free ! Btw, das Brandenburger Tor was built during the XVIII century way before the ideologies...

 

[GAGA Extrem]

As for the Autobahn: Many of these projects where already planned and begun in the 1920s during the Weimar Republic, but lack of funds during the economic crisis hindered the construction progress. When the Nazis came to power they just continued many of the halted projects. Hitler even "demoted" some of the already finished Autobahn parts to regular roads so he could declare that they (his party) had constructed the first Autobahn in Germany. So most of the "Nazi Autobahn" myth is just propaganda.

And as said above: The Brandenburg Gate could have been a pefect fit for Autocracy. It had always been used for military parades and as a symbol of "German prowess".
Here an example from 1898 (Banners reads: "Sedan - What a twist of fate thanks to gods fortune")

 

[Vidszhite]

Oh, I thought that Prora quote thread was going to disappear in a day, but it lead to some flame war ended by a moderator closing the thread. Since Brave New World announced that ideologies will play an important part, I already saw Statue of Liberty exclusive to Freedom and Kremlin exclusive to Order. As for Autocracy, I expected Brandenburg Gate.

Autocracy is, ironically, the only ideology that doesn't really benefit from Brandenburg Gate, because BG's big benefit is the ability to train units with 3 upgrades, and Autocracy gets that in a tenet along with +25% production to units. I usually don't even build it when I go Autocracy, as a result. Prora is the better wonder.

 

[NukeAJS]

There are fantasy elements to this game and they're fun (except for Spanish finding El Dorado before anyone else). Prora is one of those fantasy elements.

Prora never did anything, but the Inca (and most other civs) didn't explore the Earth from end to end either.

In my opinion, any talk about Prora should be about its abilities and not how it historically relates to autocracy/facism/nazism/genocide/brain-washing/whatever. Whenever I pick autocracy and I build Prora, it's for the free SP and NEVER the happiness. Tier one and two autocracy tenets have tons of happiness and if you need Prora's happiness when you adopt autocracy, you probably should have just went order (presumably) and gotten more happiness from socialist realism.

Edit: Completing honor, having Police State, and building barracks/armories/military academies in a city gives a Mass ton of happiness. Killing units will pay for it (and more).

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I'm actually fine with Prora. If you want an Autocracy wonder, a huge, ugly bread and circuses monstrosity isn't such a bad choice . It might be a bit redundand with all the happiness you can get from defense and military buildings, but it lets you get golden ages faster and helps defend against Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Valley of the Fallen might be a better aesthetic choice, but the bonus doesn't need changing. I'm far more disappointed with the new Kremlin. I still try to get it for the free policy, but he +50% armor production is pretty useless.
I'm against the Autobahn because the Nazis get far to much credit for them, as GAGA Extrem correctly pointed out, and I'm also against Brandenburg Gate because the last thing that Autocracy needs is more focus on the military.

 

[Nickbonista]

But autocracy sucks, so it's too big a sacrifice. For me, the statue of liberty is just as good, and freedom is better by far