"A Big Vision for Civilization 4"

[Nemesys]

hello everyone,
I haven't finished readind he document yet, but I felt like I needed to say great work to the authors. Love for the game and for history, affection and accuracy can be clearly seen from the text. great great work really,

i will post a more accurate reply when finished reading.

regards

 

[rob999910]

Well I’m going to put my 2 pennies worth in on trade, my idea for trade routes is similar to the article but in my idea every city trades with every other visible city that it has a path to. Secondly the path taken is weighted depending on terrain like movement is but highly favourable to sea routes. Thirdly trade routes are visible on a separate overlay furthermore the number of trade routes per square is proportional to the commerce generated on a log scale I propose base 5. This would mean that “chock” points like Suez would be of high importance because of the high income per square. This would mean that trade building would need a rethink an idea for these is that there reduce the level boundaries eg to base 4. This change to trade could make embargoes powerful tools to be used by blocking these paths as well as trade agreements furthermore navies would be powerful tools to blocking enemy trade routes. Anyway tell me if you like my idea or if there are anyways to improve it.

 

[Joesocwork]

Really great document! It taught me some of the subtleties of the game!

 

[good news]

some good things civ 2 had:
-cheeky kind of pride: "get of the land which is rightfully ours", compare that vith civ's 3 "yes, my emperor". i felt so disguisted when i would be called "my emperor". like, if i m a toddler. the war would be declared with message where word war was in capitals. player would notice that word first, what had special psychological impact. than, to calm down, you would read the rest of the message hopping it says something else. civ2 gave the greatest emotional involvent. the civ still has some of that infantilism what can be seen in the name they used for civilopedia - the big picture.
-option to change sides during game. i would many times go to develop the weakest.
-no player mode - when i would get tired an fed up with micromanagment i would go in no player mode. just watching.

 

[Skallagrimson]

I miss the accurate world map Civ2 had. I used to like playing random start locations but on the actual land mass of earth (imagining, for example, there's been a global catastrophe and various survivors of earth have to rebuild from scratch after floating in a temporary world flood, etc.)

 

[goldy206]

I am maybe the biggest Civilization fan since the first version decades ago and I am posting this so it can hopefully get to someone that can make a change. The begginig and the intro of the game is fantastic !! (almost made me cry when I saw it, I'm serious). I got a little sceptical when I saw the animated units and the menues and icons that remind me of all the other "fancy" games that are (according to my opinion) not worth even 1/100 from what has this game to say and offer.I passed through that thinking that the improved things in the game overcome the bad millions of times. Buuuut....My concern is this. Starting the game and starting to develop my Impery and army, building cities etc. i have problems with the "stronger" army of the barbarians. The barbarian wariors are distroying my improved Immortal army like little toys occupying my cities, and they are supposed to be 2 or 3 times weaker. I cannot simply concentrate on the other aspects of the game including building economy, culture and enlarging my Impery building cities and other units. This "strong barbarian armies" are presented totally redicously unreal and they even build cities on the same place they razed my city, protecting them with "simple" warriors that simply can not be killed. (I mean They're supposed to be not-so-organized compared to a Improved units of an army but that's not the case). Sincerely, I'm very dissapointed cause I'm a huge fan as I said for a long time and this game means and meant a lot to me. I mean I learned a lot of history throuhout this years, the game was very very playable especially the 3 part. But, this 4th part dissapointed me so much that I usually quit the game not even reaching the classical era cause my "supperior" enemy is not the French, the Aztek, Egyptian or whoever else, but the super intelligent-stronger-then-all-barbarians. And the level of difficulty is only Monarch, I wonder how superior they are on the higher levels. Anyhow, I hope this gets to someone (not only like a post, but also like a consideration), if not, at least it's something I got of my chest. I will be still giving chances to this game in the future but only if it improves, not if goes backward and one more time I hope this gets to someone relevant and it could be considered like something to be fixed.....I'm holding my fingers crossed...

Thank you for letting me post this and all the best.....

Civilization Fun x 100 times

 

[Skallagrimson]

@ Skallagrimson: I understand what you mean about historical inaccuracies and sometimes it irritates me too but your chasing an impossible dream because no one's going to make that kind of game. Sadly there's no market for SimHistory - Firaxis makes Civ to make money and to do that they need to grab the attention of young people (who are most likely to buy PC games) - if you make a game too complicated its just going to put people off apart from a small niche of history buffs

The small niche of turn-based war strategy buffs is, if anything, a slight bit smaller than the niche of military history buffs.

You want popular? Make it more like Grand Theft Auto: Sim Pillage. But ironically that would be realistic too. OOPS, that cuts Firaxis out of that market as well.

 

[fireclaw722]

Another Idea,

Temporary Alliances

A civ can get an Alliance, like a Permanent Alliance but could be cancelled. I know there are possible exploits, but I think it would be nice as an option.

 

[Trachmyr]

What I've always wanted to see was alternate tech paths...

Civ is a game of "What if", what if the romans were still in power? What if the Native Americans had access to horses? What if England wasn't an Island? etc.

Techs would be a great way to expand the what ifs... What if you don't have access to Iron but can excel in ceramics? What if combustion engines were invented before steam engines (actually, in this sense... our own history should be viewd as a what if steam engines were invented before combustion).

These alternate tech paths allow you to work around some of the "chokepoints" in technology or resources, but close off and become unavailable when the more "effiecent" tech route is followed.

Take Gunpowder for instance... it could have been invented much later OR earlier, but as soon as it is invented, it becomes dominant. If invented earlier then it's easy to forsee the results, units are still restricted by your mettalurgy knowledge, but they change to take advantage of the new discovery. If invented later, then new melee/archery units would be developed until a future time where the effects of gunpowder can be replaced with other technology (compression, magnetism, etc.)

 

[Naokaukodem]

What I've always wanted to see was alternate tech paths...

Civ is a game of "What if", what if the romans were still in power? What if the Native Americans had access to horses? What if England wasn't an Island? etc.

Techs would be a great way to expand the what ifs... What if you don't have access to Iron but can excel in ceramics? What if combustion engines were invented before steam engines (actually, in this sense... our own history should be viewd as a what if steam engines were invented before combustion).

These alternate tech paths allow you to work around some of the "chokepoints" in technology or resources, but close off and become unavailable when the more "effiecent" tech route is followed.

Take Gunpowder for instance... it could have been invented much later OR earlier, but as soon as it is invented, it becomes dominant. If invented earlier then it's easy to forsee the results, units are still restricted by your mettalurgy knowledge, but they change to take advantage of the new discovery. If invented later, then new melee/archery units would be developed until a future time where the effects of gunpowder can be replaced with other technology (compression, magnetism, etc.)

Wouldn't this be a little like in this topic? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=320684

 

[Nuvoloblu]

This debate is very interesting !!!

However, by taking account of the various debates in progress on the various upgrading capabilities of the game, it becomes impossible of all to read (especially if one is not naturally Anglophone!), and very difficult to answer individually and correctly all Thread which interests us (with the translation, that ends up taking much time!)!
So…I thus temporarily will place this long text of general order… in double, on the one hand in “A Big Vision for Civilization 4" and on the other hand in “Civ V Ideas & Suggestions Summary".

((Note: PLEASE excuse the probably uncomfortable English generated by my translation system / French Original text available on request))​

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Game-Design applied to Civilization 4 +
" Dissertations N°1 "​

PREMISE

Hey Civ-Fans…
This is not my scheme of work for the development or the modification of programs, because I am not at all data processing specialist (I only arrange…), but it is rather about a whole of suggestions made in the hope take part positively in the projection of this marvellous game towards new horizons…
I read as much as possible (I am not a very good English-speaking) the various suggestions that you formulated on this Forum and I acknowledge that there is very interesting much, and -by chance- it appears that several spirits warm up on the same considerations !
I am thus delighted to present you this (as we would launch a bottle in the sea) by way of modest participation in these constructive debates, and in the hope that it can inspire at least meanwhile some Modders which maybe have still no good inspirations (that arrives at everybody!).

INITIAL POTENTIAL

Civilizations and Geography
- Aren't you opposed to have to begin a part with Byzantines far from the sea, or with Arabs in Arctic zone?
- To develop…

Initial poverty
- The initial Colonist and the two funny ones which accompany it seem fallen from a flying saucer! Whatever the time chosen, the built City is hopelessly empty of any installation. Also, it is always necessary to lose innumerable Tours of play (very tedious!) before starting to have fun a little… Thus, if you hope to be able to play in Antiquity, it is missed… because you are already in the Classic Age one!
- In addition, “Advanced starting” makes it possible to limit these disadvantages somewhat. But the very limited visibility of the geographical environment makes that one arranges in the total ignorance of his context… One is often surprised result (didn't you already make a port in a lake, or cavalry on an island?) !

Resources
- How to avoid having to face Viking's Elephants, or to have to beg for some Horses for your Carthaginian army?
- These aberrations could be however easily solved if the IA had a program which would make it possible to apply the resources to the map after the positioning of the People and a planned way (=resources according to Civilizations), rather than before the placement of those… and a random way!
(This occasion has, it would be appropriate that Camel is added to the strategic resources and that ceases being an Arab exclusiveness (not true!))
- An alternative solution within the current system could be to allot some typical strategic resources to each civilization with/beside its initial placement (of the Camels only at the Arabs, the Mongols, the Indians, the Berber ones, etc / Seek documentation!).
- A Civ'-Fan (who?) presents the very relevant question of the inexistence of the Horses in America raised before "Conquista" and their development after… It would be well to solve this question! For reasons of facility of programming won't one be able -for example, taking account of the Migrations- to make emerge certain resources at certain historical times?
- To develop…

FEMALE ABSENCE

- By discovering this game, a girl-friend said me “It's a game for Machos or Homosexuals?”. I answered here while laughing “Perhaps both, but… not only!” I then had to bait me in long explanations to recover here sympathy…
- It is true that too much many is –alas- those which think wrongly that the woman has only one role minor (if not very negligible) in the blooming and the decline of Civilizations. Also many are those which neglect the capacity of a game to influence (even unconsciously) the consciences…
- To avoid this false perception of the world, I thus recommend that one introduces into this game at least some female characters… in probable roles (Workwoman, Executive, etc), and -even if that can displease with some- which one adds in Technologies some notions forgotten such as “Women's Education” (some are unaware of it perhaps still, but mothers ignorant seldom generated geniuses) and “Women's Vote” (after the Republic).
- To develop…

RIGHT-OF-TRANSIT

- Are you not shocked by this foreign artillery -or this tank- which walks quietly as a tourist in your peaceful Country? Or… to be suddenly attacked by a very remote enemy who crossed incognito several countries -which are perhaps even favourable for you- with a powerful Army?
- In this formula -as in all realities of times of peace- it would be necessary that only freedom of movement of Scouts, Merchants, Personality and various Ships and Planes is allowed (ports, overflights and not based !).
But it appears inadmissible to me that one can walk there of true Troops of combat, even of the whole Armies (As on your Nation now… I Hope)!
- This military transit should not be authorized that within the framework of an “Alliance”, even of what one could define as a “wide” Right-of-way.
- Accordingly -for these uses- I recommend that current Scout is replaced by the “Tourist”.
In complement, the possibility of creating Companies of Voyage maritime (specific unit Steamer) and air (Transport aircraft) could allow to improve the visibility on its neighbours. Once indicated the target, the IA could automatically manage the movement of these elements… which could also generate an economic no-claims bonus!
In addition to how being more realistic, it would be prettier!

COMMANDS

- We manipulate at present the armies as a God since his satellite and in direct contact with heaps of units scattered here and there. That is not very realistic, especially beyond its borders and if it is a question of coordinating attacks!
- Generals and Admirals should be indispensable to move strengths outside. These could have a "Zone of Command" (equivalent to the cultural Zone of cities / or in that recommended for the units) which -only- would authorize the movement of the units outside roads and attack in these conditions.
So, these new characters could have tactical capacities (=bonus, surcharge / not cumulative if some) who would apply to the strengths situated in their zone. Besides that realist, this can be an important playful element !!!

LOGISTICS

Abstract Representation
- The logistic references can be represented in an “Abstract” way in the form of “Zone of logistic influence” are equivalent to the cultural Zone and calculated starting from the Deposits (Cities and Forts contain some automatically) controlled or Allied… like starting from the Roads, Rails and Ports connected to these structures and not cut by the enemy.
This -joined to the high maintenance costs of the armies except territory- would preserve the spirit of simulation and would confer obviously a certain comfort to the player.
But the abstraction of these networks is not possible that if the IA has a program able to evaluate these bonds (traced artificially at sea)… and that most probably requires the creation of a complex program!

Figurative Representation
- Alternatively, a “Figurative” representation more of logistics (This was partially already carried out successfully in the MOD “Charlemagne”) would simplify the work of the programmers!
It would be a question of simply creating new “Logistics units” which could circulate only on the Road (=Wagon, Camion) or Rails (=Locomotive) and which would be renewed automatically if they are connected to the known as zones without cut of the network by the enemy.
Idem for Fleets specific (=supply ship) adjacent to the coast accessible and under the same conditions from support of Armies.

[Example: Like the Allies in Normandy, Persians in war against the Greeks supplied already their troops by the sea… This justified -between others- the presence of combat's fleet which finally clashed in Salamina!]​

- The absence of figurative elements logistic limits in fact -more than it enriches it- the intelligence of the strategic play to a simple succession by conquest of cities and territories… what is finally very unrealistic, repetitive and tedious!
- This figurative formula implies however an special attention of the players on creation (all the same fast!) and the displacement of these specific units which -in spite of their paramount interest in a strategic game- however do not attract generally much the sympathy of the youngest players…
As, let us not forget as certain wandering armies (or sometimes not) all the same could be freed from these rules! But that could be easily solved in their allotting -thus that with new “Recognition” units- a particular specificity…

Finally…
1) -Logistics is not an invention of the Middle Ages (ask Alexander)!
2) -It there forever have invasions by the large deserts (the quantity of water necessary is excessive, and it does not resist long transport in these climates)!!!

Evolution of Logistics
- The advent of the Powder, then by the Motorization, increased each time the needs (thus the cost) of the supply. But it is as true as the economies and technologies of the countries evolved quasi in parallel to support that…
On the other hand, because of these dependences, it all the same became increasingly difficult for an army to survive only on the goods of the surrounding country!

OPERATING SPEEDS AND RANGES

- Regrettably, in this system of play (= quasi essential mixture of Strategy and Tactic), the distortion of the space-time necessary for simulation and the ludic interest implies stylizations which sometimes result in mixing these characteristics…
Fatally, the Navy and Aviation suffer the most these distortions.
- To respect probability and to preserve the strategic interest of the game, it is advisable that the maritime movements are much faster than those on the ground.
However, if one allotted to the Ships a proportionally realistic speed (on a temporal scale of the game) compared to the Armies, the Fleets would go sometimes so much quickly that some could reach into 1 Turn of activity several times the limit of their range…
Why not, it would be even much more realistic (if it took one month to go from Venice to Cyprus, during this same time one could make several alleys and returns between Palermo and Tunis!), if not that –regrettably- the Ships only have right to… 1 only combat by Tour!!!
- And that to then say Planes… which have only one mission per Tour of play?!!! It seems to me that there is all the same for the moment a real lack of coherence!

[Daily Courses of reference (approximate): - Pedestrian: 5 kmH x 8:00 = 40km /// - Motorized: 30 kmH x 6:00 = 180km /// - Ship: 30 kmH x 24:00 = 720km /// Plane: from 1 to 3 missions per day (Course = Range)]

[Operating Ranges minimum WW2 (approximate): Fighter = 400 km /// light Bomber = variable (800 km?) /// Destroyer = 3000 km /// Cruiser = variable (6000 km?)]

[Autonomy (for transfers) = operating Range x 2]​

- To correct this, it would not be more judicious -and simple to realize- to grant to the Planes the same prerogatives of movement as to the Ships (=renewal of the movement in active Tour until exhaustion of the potential), and to authorize to both an unlimited number of engagements?!!!
- To develop… (To read Chapter “Detection and Reaction”)

VISIBILITY & GROUNDS

- It is true that we see farther since a hill and even more if we are by plane... But (certainly by will of simplification) we forgot to consider that what we really see does not depend only on the position of the Peeping Tom, but also on the surface to be considered and of the nature of the object which we can see …
Since the zero level, we can see in the naked eye the Maritime horizon up to approximately 30 km (by good weather), what is sharply upper to the visibility on the Ground, even in Forest… where nevertheless hid from the allied aviation of the whole regiments of Panzer (bigger than simple Antitank)!
Regrettably, I am sorry that some lines in the XML for these distinctions are at present missing...

DÉTECTION & RÉACTION

- The IA is very inequitable with the human players on this matter… A unit of player in phase activates pass generally in quoted(esteemed) by an enemy -or of quite other element- whom she did not see from her movement, without stopping automatically (=temporary interruption) during her discovery and often without seeing him(it) even (=too fast execution in the screen). This should be true only for the Aviation…
So, the units often prevent you of the presence of an enemy only if you gave them the specific order … And, in that case, they make only that !!! It is improper (it is as if it was necessary to give to you the order to breathe and what this would prevent you from eating !)!

ZONES OF TACTICAL INFLUENCE

- Are you not deprived to be made often and with impunity to cross by the enemy in his active Tour? This arrives even at your fast units which are overtaken by slower enemies!
Impossible to hold a "Front" (in the Antiquity it is almost normal, but since rifles and high-cadence artillery?)!
- This would not arrive if every military unit (Planes and Ships in the port excepted) had its own "Zone of tactical influence" which would block the movement, or would oblige the engagement of the enemy.
To develop …

 

[joyming]

This is totally awesome. I totally support it!

 

[Marcin388]

Here are my ideas for bts mod:

Everything from the "conquer the world" and "through the ages" mods.
(Conquer the world has probably everything that was in through the ages and more)

Technologies changed:
Laser: adds 1 for cities with hospital (reason: lasers in hospitals)
better defence for bombarding and rockets (reason: lasers destroy rockets and air planes. New building: "laser shield" or something like that)
Robotics: +3 (reason: new accessories)
+1 (reason: cars, hospitals are more advanced etc.)
paper: some other technologies and buildings require that technology
advanced shielding:
Units
Power armour soldiers (like in fallout):
str: 28 movement:1
RECEIVE defensive bonuses
+50% vs units that aren't vehicles
New technologies:
cloning: (cloning changes for advanced cloning)
+200% from farms (reason: cloning food)
Laser weaponary: Requied for plasma weaponary
gives + 4 str for power armour soldiers and cyborgs
requied for siege mechs and dreadnoughts
new units: laser artillery (same as artillery but has 28 str and bombard causes -20%)
Plasma weaponary: +1 +1
gives +8 str for power armour soldiers and cyborgs
and +15 for stealth bomber and bombard causes -32%
Requied for siege mechs and dreadnoughts
new units: plasma artillery (same as artillery but has 35 str and bombard causes -30%)

Future teechnology gives + 10 health + 10 food and +10 happiness
Genetics: requied for cloning

New modern wonder:
Big particle accelerator
+100
+100% great scientists birth rate
+2 (because people think that it can destroy earth)

New buildings:
anti-aircrafts guns in the cities that would destroy bombers.
they would also give +1

Maybe future walls that replace old walls and give better defence?? Because it looks bad when i've got future city with old walls. and cities in future age should look better than in conquer the world mod

Also all buildings should have different look and name at every or almost every age because it is a bit stupid when i build aqueducts in the modern age.

And roads and railroad tracks should be better in the future age so units would move faster or at least should look different

Also there should be new nuke:
People will have -5 happiness but it will be able to destroy 30 population and area+units near the city
It's called "Tzar bomba" It is real bomb created by Russia, and these bombs are not very radioactive

I would be also happy if you would add something to my ideas or change them a bit
I will think of more if you will use my ideas.

 

[Nuvoloblu]

This is totally awesome. I totally support it!

Thank you, but - held account of the lack of reactions I fear that this kind of dialogue does not interest anybody. Too bad…
By hoping that the levels of conscience rise a little, I wish you all the same good and happy year!

 

[Moosezilla]

The female absence can be seen in pop growth rates. It is obvious that w/o women there are no men!... yes inclusion in the game is a very good idea.

 

[PriestofSyrinx]

I had always thought that it would be cool to have different Unique Units/buildings for different leaders, that are more structured towards their time period:
For example: America

Washington: UU: Minutemen ( Replaces Rifleman, +25% defense, 1+ road movement, Starts with march) Building; Tavern ( replaces market. +35% gold, + , per wine, sugar, wheat resource)

Now if you add Regan as a leader, then America's current UU/UB would fit right in...