1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

A Brennus Game

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by krikav, Jan 21, 2020.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    Intrigued by the celts pointed out as the worst civ, I wanted to try them out abit more, and started a fractal game which got abit interesting.
    To T42:


    I rolled away a few starts with clam, because I'm no masochist, and this looked like a nice start.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    Moved scout NE->SE, perhaps it would have been better to move toward the dry wheat...? Settlement by the lake, grabbing wheat and the both cows would have been good too.
    I wanted the PH hammer, and I wanted some river tiles.
    Moved scout SE->SW next turn before settling. There was still one ocean tile that could have held fish that would have been ruined though.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    Scout went back counter-clockwise, and after revealing the dual fish spot and one more step down the coast I went back to fogbust my backyard.
    I was hoping for BFC horses but no luck there.
    Going TW next because I feel it's a safe bet. If scouting warrior can secure the horses down south I can go for chariots, and no matter how things turn out, I can still connect my second city and get a few early commerce.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    T26 things take a turn to the worse. Warrior was brave and wanted to climb the hill, and a nasty archer is luring. (Ofcourse he dies next turn).
    I wanted to risk getting the horses fast so went for settler at size2 (with two power tiles) but now the settler comes abit early so second city have to go north.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    I connect the second city and capital grows to size3 on SH which I first planned for failgold.
    However, here I make a decision to make a go for it.
    My second city wants a borderpop for the fur, and a city for the dual fish needs a monument, and it's very likely that I want the +1 happines in the capital too, so thats 90 hammers for monuments that I could save.

    There is just one lone archer down south (And I was hoping saladins scout would luck out and kill it, but he died too), and scout can sacrifice itself to lure it further south if crisis arises, and soon I can just pump warriors out fast.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    And I do get it.
    Now I'm starting to second guess myself if this was really a good call... :D
    Saladin has all EP on me, so it's likely that this is semi-iso.
    He has not founded any of the early religions, although judaism is available I have seldom seen him get that.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG


    North:
    Have just finished fishing, I have the furs soon for mayday economy, perhaps I don't need to go pottery right away, would be nice to get BW, with two unforested tiles in BFC one of them could be copper, and I could really need the chopping even though there is ok production already.
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG


    South:
    I need to stake out something here pronto, no clue how far saladin is. He only met me at T18 so likely I have some time, but I only have 3 cities north so this should be high prio.
    The archer is still roaming around, scout will move one tile SW first too see some more but then turn back to help the warriors take up positions.
    Getting a boat out to go SE, saladins boat is comming north just now.
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

    Anysense and sampsa like this.
  2. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    T56 Fun game!
    Spoiler :


    After saving cash a few turns, I commit to BW, I have enough commerce with that lake and the beavers.
    I also start a worker in both cities, as improving tundra beavers takes alot of time, and I'll have much chopping to do once BW is in.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    Barbs are still very calm, nice.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    The archer is moving north, I take a stance, 10% fortify.
    One warrior dies but that leaves the other to pick of the archer at 89% odds (and he wins!)
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    A warrior found a forested hill path to follow and dare scout some. Me and Sally seem to have quite abit of room.
    Judaism is sitll not founded, and no more wonders are built. No great generals, no great persons.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    I find Saladin. This means I should have quite abit of time to settle the south-western jungle in peace.
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    Woo hoo!
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG

    Good that the copper is already connected too! Barbs appear out of nowhere and start to march.
    I'll likely lose that mine if I don't sacrifice scout/warrior.
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG

    Fun game!
    I wonder if I should whip a barracks first, that would ensure me a quick woody2 axe which would be lovely to scout out the jungle.
    Agriculture next and then pottery I think, even that dry wheat feels good, I need more food to grow with this high happy-cap.
    Perhaps a city 1S of the horse is sensible with insta-monument...? That would get a dry rice and would get that peak under culture for nice fogbusting and should block of saladins interest for the western region for some time.

    Should probably settle that double-fish soon too...
    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

  3. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,128
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    @ Krikav :
    Spoiler :
    I think it's a good call on Stonehenge :goodjob:
    It's more debattable whether city 2 should go north or south : getting cows + horses with city 2 seems a lot stronger than waiting on a border pop to unlock the furs.
    Without agriculture, the northern city is... meh at best. Getting powertiles online, otoh...
     
    krikav likes this.
  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    T71
    Spoiler :


    Barbs ofcourse bypass the axeman in the hill city, but I dare not kill the warrior because I don't want to gamble that the warrior defending wins against the archer.
    Crossing river to kill archer yields 70+% odds but I don't like that either.
    Next turn, archer dies against the city and I can safely kill the warrior.
    Civ4ScreenShot0022.JPG

    With the roads pillaged, getting to the horse takes alot of time, I'm also starting to feel severe upkeep stress, working coast now to reach pottery in a hurry.
    I also settle Gergorvia in a good position to help mature cottages.
    Civ4ScreenShot0024.JPG

    Someone oracles christianity, so much for my backup plan to bulb theology and get me and my buddy a religion (and cozy up with theocracy).
    Will eek out pottery now and throw down a few and send a settler south to stake out some more land.
    Civ4ScreenShot0028.JPG

     
  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    @BornInCantaloup Thats absolutely true! Getting a city by the cow+horse would have been way better, but not sure at all how I would get there or hold it. I had just lost my only warrior and the scout was busy fogbusting the north.
    Settling north was the only alternative imho, what else, wait with the settler to produce a pair of warriors first...?

    I think the mistake was done when I went for settler at size2, before getting out another warrior or two.
     
  6. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,128
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    I think it's correct to go settler at size 2. Vienne comes down early enough that it isn't in danger from the barb invasion : you "just" need to secure the settling. ~~ unlocking new tiles also gives some use for worker turns, other than roading.
    So dance around the barbs while approaching the spot. Worker can help, scout/warrior can help. City then produces 8h/t, which is enough for safety.

    Another thing with Stonehenge is : you need to secure a fast Library, fast enough that the 1st GP won't be a prophet.
    The most conspicuous spot for that is the double fish : I believe that city should be 3rd.
    Getting Wheel/Pottery before Writing is... I'm not sure how the timings work out.
     
    krikav likes this.
  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    I will likely get a prophet. :)
     
  8. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,128
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    I'll try to show you an academy, then. But I'll have to restart, because I neglected to build a unit in my capital and a barb warrior decided to waltz through the gates :woohoo:
    (Going AH, Mining, Fishing, BW ... Writing next is the question.)
     
    krikav likes this.
  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    Spoiler T76 :


    Saladin reached writing and I walk in to scout, I see something suspicious right away.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    This stack is moving toward me. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    Gergorvia will reach 10 culture so I'll get +20% defense there beforehe can hit.
    Two axes should be enough to defend against this.
    Have the woody axe in the forest too, but probably best to stay there so he doesn't "waltz to my capital" :D

    He is willing to accept Gergovia as a gift, and I'm thinking that it could be an interesting option. That would give me diplo for later, and if I defend I can defend in my capital. I also have a city that I can attack too.
    SH and palace will ensure that that city will be pushed severely.

    That drops me down to 3 cities and I could probably tech to construction quicker then.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

     
  10. earthy

    earthy Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2019
    Messages:
    233
    If I did gift that to him, I would be tempted to settle 1SE of the wheat and chop out a library to steal the cow back. Without a religion I don't think he would be able to hold onto it. Not sure if that's a good play or not, but such wanton aggression must be punished :nono:
     
    krikav likes this.
  11. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis King

    Joined:
    May 21, 2018
    Messages:
    732
    Gender:
    Male
    Sally does have his 4:culture: Library UB, if that makes any difference (it probably doesn't).
     
  12. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    10,816
    Gender:
    Female
    I see SH as big mistake, you could have used the gold so much for teching :)
     
    krikav likes this.
  13. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,128
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    That's an interesting sight. I think I'd rather defend and try to farm some xp than offer a city. Not sure if Saladdin would attack against 3 axemen in the city, so maybe only leave 2... Kinda hard to decide on that.
    If 3 axes are garrisoned, probably keep the two workers at hand, so as to have the option to road and catch his stack before they retreat into the forests.
    // Probably need the 3 units.

    Fippy may be right about the SH gold. I still like the wonder.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    Spoiler T82 :

    I decide to try to defend, when he DoW, he dissapears. No clue how this could have happend.
    Perhaps because by borders popped the same turn of the DoW?
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    A scouting warrior is teleported to a worker, steal and delete to get some war success.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    With my won time, I finish the settler I had at 83/100, and send it to this hill, abit better place to defend, I'm thinking.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    This felt abit light, but I was hoping. He didn't attack though!
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
    This fight is likewise tricky, I should have good odds against the axes, but my injured troops might then be easy targets for his archers.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG
    But two of my axes die at 22% odds. :'(
    I'm throwing in the towel here. This will really have convinced him that he is winning.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG



     
    lymond likes this.
  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    @Fippy
    Regarding SH, Yes, that might be correct.
    I was probably abit intrigued by the fact that I'm playing celts too. ;)

    I see my biggest mistake in that I was abit too reckless with my lone warrior, when I had commited to a size2 settler early on. That I had to resort to settling in my backyard that early with a city that didn't contribute much was painful.

    Either should have gone for size3 settler with more warriors, or I should have been more conservative with my warriors movement in that critical moment.
     
    sampsa likes this.
  16. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,128
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    Welp, thanks for sharing ! :lol: :D :goodjob:
     
    krikav likes this.
  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    No problem! Was a fun short game. :) Will see if I roll some other nice Brennus game.
     
  18. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    22,474
    Location:
    UK
    Short but sweet. This can happen on deity. With 5-6 cities always the risk of an Ai DOW. Sal often does this.

    4axes on a hill against 8-9 units. Zero cultural defence and little fortify bonus. 2-1 attackers vs defenders and RNG was against you. I think the barbs weakened you down quite a bit here.

    Fact you still posted the game is great. You never really know how these games will go.
     
    krikav likes this.
  19. drewisfat

    drewisfat Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    437
    Rough map. Props for sharing the game, especially a loss. I think the big mistakes are Stonehenge and workboat.

    I think SH is virtually always a mistake, but if we're looking for conditions where the stars align:
    - Myst starter
    - Settling on stone
    - IND
    - CHA
    - No barb concerns
    - Ok with a GP

    All we've got here is CHA and myst starter. I'd want like 5/6. The big issue with SH is to build it early enough to actually get it you need to greatly reduce warriors, making you very susceptible to barbs. Great Wall is fine because it covers this issue, unlike SH. And you get the best GP to boot. Here you were a lucky duck in that copper spawned underneath your second city. And even so, you lost a mine to barbs. If copper had spawned anywhere else requiring a mine+road, or just not in your territory, would have been disastrous. Either warrior spam or grabbing the horses for an early chariot would have been safer, both for the barbs and for apparently being stuck on a 2 person continent where there's no WHEOOHRN warning. Also, the one forward barb you did have was scouting a coastline you had no chance of settling, not defensively spawn busting which should definitely take priority especially since you're gambling on barbs with early SH.

    Workboat confuses me. You don't start with fishing and didn't have seafood. Teching something not immediately helpful and dumping another 30 hammers into a wb when you're already being risky with SH is asking for trouble. And I don't see the benefit. You've already met Sally so this isn't a situation where you're trying to determine if you're isoed or semi-isoed.
     
    sampsa and krikav like this.
  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    Thank you alot for your feedback @drewisfat !

    You are right that copper was lucky with copper, however I did have good production in the capital so could if I wanted just spam out warriors, costly but doable.
    I did lose the mine, but that was mainly because I prioritized getting a barracks out first, axe could have been there in time to save the mine. I wanted barracks to get a woody2 axe, and the mine was wearing out it's use too as I thought it was time to instead grow and work cottages.
    So, it was a funny idea and likely a bad one.
    A riverside grassland mine is a superb tile and I wouldn't have wanted it pillaged and at that stage of the game rebuilding the mine has opportunity cost in chopping so 25 hammers into the wind. Was a woody2 axe earlier worth that? Most likely not!



    If I dare to speculate on how I thougth regarding the workboat (which might well be a mistake!)
    I had a nice city which required borderpop for fishes, and fishing is cheap and makes pottery cheaper.
    I also gain the lake.
    It's safe to scout with a boat, no risk of losing it at this stage.
    And once OB is in, sailing is an option for easy traderoutes.
    This was likewise probably a bad idea.
    Since I had the wheel, and the furs, most of my commerce problems was already taken care of, and getting BW quicker should probably have been prioritized.
     
    sampsa likes this.

Share This Page