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A case for battleships

Originally posted by Sobieski II


Not like the vested interests of the shipyards that want to get the contracts for the overly priced new command ships:rolleyes:

Ever hear of Bath Iron Works? It's the biggest employer in my state, so if it got a contract to build these new ships or if any other ship yard did they would have to hire new workers, meaning more jobs. Anyone here ever say the Bush admin. wasn't doing enough to make new jobs?:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Kryten
Excellent input Simon Darkshade....I although at times I wondered if we were still speaking the same language, what with ERGM's, NGFS's, OMFTS's, LCAC's..... :crazyeye:
(Fear not: I dug out my old Tom Clancy factual books and managed to translate them all. :D )

Just a couple of points:-
Yes, all ships would be escorting and protecting each other. So container ships with mobile Cruise Missile launchers would be nicely tucked away and relatively safe inside the centre of a Task Force, as indeed are the Carriers and any troop ships.

But surely the main question is the future role of large warships in a post 'Cold War' world, where there is just one sole superpower, with no serious threat to it's dominant navy. If Soviet Russia, or Communist China, or some other country or allience were a naval rival, then yes, every naval techological advantage/vessel/role would need to be covered.
But I can see the logic of 're-scaling' and 're-sizing' modern fleets to fit this new world, a world in which big naval battles are a thing of the past.

An historical example (although probably inaccurate), would be that of the ancient Roman fleets. When threatened by the Carthaginian & Macedonian navies, the Romans built huge Quinqueremes/Hexeres/Hepteres/Octeres/Deceres (if anyone is interested in ancient warfleets, see HERE ;) ). But once these other fleets had disappeared, the Romans reverted to much smaller lighter and faster Liburnian galleys, just to keep the pirates under control, and to protect their commerce.
Are we not entering a similar period in history?
Are big expensive battleships neccessary to 'project power inland'?
Or can the job be done in other cheaper ways?

1.) Putting all the ships together does enable AEGIS to be concentrated, but is rather catastrophic for leakers and for its achilles heel, namely a concentrated swamping barrage.
There are two further issues on this point - the politics of such a choice, and the advantages of splitting fire. Would the Navy, or any armed service or large byzantine institution willingly give up the raison d'etre of their ships to a converted civilian vessel? If it worked, this would mean the distinct possibility of their own fiefs being further cut. Whilst such an assymetric notion has certain elements of advantage, it would never be countenanced.
Secondly, the advantage of splitting a fleet force between a battleship element, and a carrier element further back is that it creates more targets, dividing fire, and lessening the effect of swamping. Being further in, battleships can act as stalking horses for such ASM/SSM fire, and be able to take multiple hits. This allows other elements of the force the strategic space to maneuver and strike according to their own capabilities, thus overall enhancing both the offensive and defensive hitting power of the fleet.

2.) Ah, the good old notion of shaping capabilities to what is the threat right now. On one level, nice and common sense. On another level, in the context of history, not quite so. It has been the mistake of the US and many other powers to downgrade capabilities once a war is won, which does create a hollow force. When a conflict comes around again, recreating capability is not a quick process. An alternative is to take the victory dividend, and use it to surge so far ahead that it does not cater to the strengths of prospective foes.

The current war is but yet young, and will consist of the whole range of types of conflict intensity. There are also emerging, albeit as yet potential, threats from a number of other sectors, some of which going the whole way to high intensity. By enhancing capabilities that are beyond the pale of even any potential competitor; their current developments are being shaped by what is being put in place now, and these arguably cater to the enemies strength. But a vessel that would have the impact of HMS Dreadnought, and making all previous 'capital ships' obsolete is an appealing one; a vessel which turns all previous conventional naval warfighting wisdom on its head, and forcing all potential opponents into developing means of dealing with it to the exclusion of addressing other capabilities. A mixed approach emphasising all strengths and capabilities is the surest route to victory with the least cost in blood and treasure; a tactical analogy is that of keeping the foeman pinned down with artillery and machine gun fire from all directions and angles, so that they have no path of least resistance to advance along.

3.) It is not just to project power in the littoral zones, or to control the blue water zones of the sea, but also to project power and control the zones of the mind. The most successful battle or war is that which does not require fighting, and this can be achieved through a whole range of assymetric means.

And the Romans were not a maritime power on rank with the US; they did not have two oceans to control, and vital interests in the other oceans and seas to protect.

As for a battleship being easy to sink with modern weaponary, one is reminded of Sergei Gorshkov's nice quote on the matter.
 
How quick are these battleships in comparison to the planned Command Ships?

Also, in terms of the staffing levels required...how many crew do both employ as staffing is a headache, not to mention expensive and if there are alot of people on one boat then the loss of the vessel could entail huge loss of life.


Would have been nice to see some facts provided for us to view, at present we have one fact (apparently) that these battleships would cost 1/10th as much to refit to fill the roll of the new command ships.

Facts please, gun nuts.
 
Battleship can make 32-35 knots; JCC(X) 14-22 knots, depending on choice (proposals range from using LPD-17 variant or converted cruise ship).
Battleship crew of 1200-1500, plus command staff. Accomodation of up to 2700+ possible. JCC(X) max accomodation of 1400(LPD).
Cost of BB reactivation $200 million; BBG conversion $7-900 million for both. (Global Security refers to the cost being less than a modern guided missile frigate; FFG-7 cost was approximately $200 million; DDG costs up to 5 times that much)
New ship construction of LPD-17 variant base cost of $802 million per hull, plus extra costs for added facilities and modification.

(N.b.: LPD-17 is an amphibious transport, being built anyway. Most likely JCC(X) proposal is a variant of this; full planning not yet done, or even majorly worked upon. Building time from ordering to commissioning for LPD-17 type is around 7 years. Add on decision time, and will not enter fleet before c.2012 timeframe at best; battleships are here now, and process would take 18-24 months maximum from go order)
 
A lot of eggs in one armoured basket.
Armour is great, if your enemy is stupid enough to hit you there.
(The entire Battlecruiser class, The Hood, The General Bellgrano)

Battleships died with airpower. If you want shore bombarment
bulid monitors.
 
Battleship armor as was on the last generation of BBs is now worthless. That armor on the turrets of North Carolina's, South Dakota's and Iowa's that could withstand direct hit from a 500lb bomb in WW2 would most likely be defeated by the HEAT or APFSDS rounds the modern tank cannons fire.
 
Originally posted by Speedo
Battleship armor as was on the last generation of BBs is now worthless. That armor on the turrets of North Carolina's, South Dakota's and Iowa's that could withstand direct hit from a 500lb bomb in WW2 would most likely be defeated by the HEAT or APFSDS rounds the modern tank cannons fire.

But show me the tank that can fire that far out to sea.

Anyways, the main disadvantage of reintroducing battleships, to my mind, is that they will instantly be sunk by the first veteran phalanx they run into.:lol:
 
But show me the tank that can fire that far out to sea.

My point is that the ability to defeat that armor is easily found with modern weapons :p
 
Originally posted by MarineCorps


Ever hear of Bath Iron Works? It's the biggest employer in my state, so if it got a contract to build these new ships or if any other ship yard did they would have to hire new workers, meaning more jobs. Anyone here ever say the Bush admin. wasn't doing enough to make new jobs?:rolleyes:

When it comes to the military, the top possible performance with the given resources is the absolute top priority. As soon as political compromises are made, the quality of the force begins to slip.
 
Our tiny canadian frigates with aniti-ship missile can destroy a battleshipe well before he realise what happen, :lol: come on, those big elephant are well obselete.

But they are fun in Civ 3,;)
 
Originally posted by Tassadar
Our tiny canadian frigates with aniti-ship missile can destroy a battleshipe well before he realise what happen, :lol: come on, those big elephant are well obselete.

But they are fun in Civ 3,;)

You would be surprised how much power it would take to kill a battleship. The bomb at Pearl that hit the Arizona was VERY lucky
 
Ya it went straight down the smoke stack didn't it? I think it's cool idea, ain't gonna happen, but I would be all for it if I had any sort of say in it. Was watching a PBS this thing about the Wisconsian and it did and what it is doing. And man what a waste of steel and resources they mothballed it twice and modernized it once.
 
but they are already built, and brand new. They have VERY tangible and economical uses. So why not use them?
 
One would like to see any form of evidence to back up the sometimes wild claims being made as to the vulnerability against modern weaponary, (armour that was designed for a heck of a lot more than 500lb bombs; try direct hits from 2000+ armour piercing shells) or the vague term 'aniti-ship missile'. A whole lot of rhetoric, but nothing substantive backing it up.
 
I will make my statements brief.

From all I have read upon the subject, it so seems that a battleship serving the role of a more expensive command ship, and with modifications into a BBG, would be more intelligent provided that no, even cheaper, alternative exists.

To briefly counter some arguments:

#1. Battleships easily sunk.

With modern weapons and weapons systems, the battleship could be no easier to sink than ANY other ship currently in ANY navy ANYWHERE. I have heard discussion of missiles, bombs, and other kinds of things. I would only suggest that there are not as many defensive gaps for the battleship to overcome as there has been suggested, but that gaps do indeed exist. However, I would rather see Americans choose to overcome these gaps and become stronger rather than to abandon the idea, because there are obstacles and challenges.

#2. No battleships built since WWII / They are obsolete.

Events at the end of World War II and immediately following the war were primary to the end of the battleships.

When the atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the world was obviously shaken. Nuclear weapons were deemed neccessary to any nation's arsenal if that nation desired to remain, militarily, on the world stage. When the Soviet Union, shortly thereafter, developed their own nuclear weapons program, it was concluded that not only would most of the conflict, of the next war, not only take place, on land, in Western Europe, but that it would most certainly be a nuclear conflict.

In so whereas battleships were concerned, most nations post-WWII simply could not afford anything of a navy, much less any battleships. The remaining nations that could, quickly examined the effects of nuclear weapons on surface ships. When it was concluded that the future of the navy would be to deliver nuclear arms, battleships were deemed a non-essential and in fact wasteful expense. The navy would deliver nuclear weapons via aircraft and submarine and the remaining naval ships would protect the former.

The United States invested its hopes for defense of the free world in nuclear weapons. Battleships simply were not a rational part of the equation. Now that the threat of the Cold War has subsided and current wars are not expected to be fought with nuclear arms, the battleships does have a legitimate role. This has been proven repeatedly in Korea, Vietnam and most recently in the first Gulf War. Not in any of those conflicts has the battleship sustained any damage from enemy fire and they provided invaluable service.

#3. Battleships are not cost-effective / They are unneccessary.

This argument may hold some weight. I am not entirely sure these ships are needed, at this moment. However, if there is to be a ship serving a role that could be performed cheaper and with greater capability, by the battleship, I see no reason why we should not convert these ships to BBGs and procede in development of a future generation that would provide even greater capability, more efficiently.

In closing, I can only say that the information and data is sound and accurate. The ships can be converted at said price, they can be operated cheaper with greater capability. The only question is their ability to perform the combination of duties in a modern navy and world. My estimation and the estimation of many well-informed persons (more informed than I) is that they could perform very well. What holds this idea back is complications with the battleships' current status (being that they are promised as exhibits and museums) and the politics. Some people wish not to see a more well-armed, more capable U.S military. Most view this as a military spending increase rather than seeing it as a replacement of a more expensive item.

And, as it turns out, my statements were not so brief, I apologize.
 
Well said. On point 3, there are no complications with status; even New Jersey and Missouri are subject to recall from museum status, and Iowa and Wisconsin are still on the naval register, as Class Two mobilization assets.

In regards to point 2, quite right, as part of the wider thinking which supposed that nuclear weapons made all other weapons systems obsolete. Also of related interest is the outcomes of the Bikini Atoll tests, and the levels of damage done to the older battleships expended in it.

On point 1, quite right again. The development of the shield has not stopped while the development of the sword skyrocketed ahead, and the weapons of the enemy are the ones to be examined; it is unlikely that the US Navy will find itself up against the US Air Force in full scale combat.
 
The basic reason battleships are obsolete is because they just can't compete with modern aircraft carriers. An aircraft carrier can stay a several hundered miles away and still engage its target. While the battleship is is trying to shot down fighter/bombers it doesn't even KNOW where the carrier is. A carrier has an effective attack range of several hundered miles while a carrier has a range of only a 20 miles or so.
 
Well, thankyou sir.

As far as Missouri and New Jersey are concerned. What I was concerned with is the fact that as exhibits and museums is that they have been inactive for many years and both prior to the kind of upgrades and refits that Iowa and Wisconsin enjoyed. The cost of converting them to BBG and returning them to service in the manner we are discussing is considerably more.

As far as Iowa and Wisconsin are concerned, I was under the impression that they, too, would be loaned as exhibits and eventually placed somewhere as permanent memorials or museums. I could be mistaken.
 
Re: Enemy Ace - No. Iowa is still at Suisan Bay, and Wisconsin is in semi-museum status, but without any alterations.
NJ and Miss have had all of the upgrades from the 1980s that the other two had; all were reactivated in the period 1982-1988, and received the whole kit and kaboodle. Their cost would be exactly the same.

Re: The same old aircraft carrier point. It is an argument only applicable to WW2.
Firstly, they carry a minimum of 32 cruise missiles, and with further BBG modernization, this jumps to over 150 at minimum, and upwards of 200 without great difficulty; these all have an attack range of over 1000 miles, with strategic variants out to 1500nm. These cost less than a carrier aircraft, and far less in terms of escort fighters, tankers, electronic warfare jammers and all the accompanying features to a carrier strike package. Also, if a cruise missile is shot down, you do not lose a $20 million + aircraft and pilots who have years of training invested in them.
But this is not their only capability. Gunfire, no matter its range, is not the same as air delivered ordnance. Combat air support and effective naval gunfire support are two separate things, and forces ashore and coming ashore should not have to choose between the two. There are missions that an aircraft carrier cannot provide, such as tactical naval gunfire support. And the shell costs even less than the missile.

Noone is arguing that battleships are better than carriers. Rather, the whole naval equation of power and capability is advanced with the added presence of BBGs, allowing carriers to do tasks fitted to them, and BBG gunfire and missiles to take on other targets.

With modern radar, guided munitions and UAVs, the impact of gunfire can be dramatically increased. Extended range munitions of out to 100nm+ were under research and development, and can be worked on; Gerard Bull's work firing projectiles into orbit using 16" guns, and his other work on artillery is also useful. There is scope for the gun firing further and far more accurately (with a 1900 or 2700lb shell, there is less need for a tighter CEP, given the wider kill radius)
 
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