A Civ V retrospective: what features do you love and, which ones do you hate?

What I think really needs to be changed in this game is the fact that you can only have 1 of each wonder. If 2 people are building a wonder at the same time and one person gets it 1 or 2 turns sooner the other person gets practically nothing for their efforts.

Lets think about this logically, no society is going to scrap a project that's nearly complete. For game balance it just makes sense and makes the game less luck based. IMO if you are more than half done with a wonder when it is completed you should be able to complete it as well.

This would drastically reduce wonder ragers in MP and IMO is just a better mechanic. At the moment you can lose a wonder the same turn you complete it to some one simply because they joined the lobby before you. uh what? Worst mechanic ever.

The Wonder Race is a main feature of the Civilization Series from Civ1 to Civ5.

The game rule that there might be no 2 wonders of the same type in the game however is completely artificial and not always logical.

I don't like it if I loose a Wonder Race against a civ I haven't even met, e.g. when civs are building the Pyramids in Eurasia and the Americas before both parts of the world get in contact and then some strange God turns the loosing projects into cash. History has shown that e.g. pyramids were build in many cultures all over the world.

If you loose the Wonder race, you can still capture the city where the wonder is built. Previous versions of Civ focused more on war, conquest and Empire-building. I think that is the reason why they did not change it.

You can mod Civ5 to build Wonders like National Wonders by changing MaxGlobalInstances = 1 to MaxPlayerInstances = 1. (see CIV5BuildingClasses.xml and related files for information) (Maybe You should then set NeverCapture=true to avoid having more than one wonder of the same type in your empire when capturing cities.)

I can imagine a scenario where Wonders are like UBs and can only be built by their original civ (or in the (original) capital city of that civ), e.g. only Egypt can build the pyramids, only France (Paris) can build Notre Dame or Eiffel Tower. Other Players still could capture the wonders. However it might be difficult to balance it.
 
i actually like most of what they did with civ5 in theory

but in practice, it just doesn't work since the singleplayer has awful AI and none of the tactical combat translates well to fast-paced multiplayer games
 
Not 10, but...

Positives:
1UPT. The stacks of doom were kind of fun to build but really required little tactics to employ.

Embarkation. Building ships to transport units was a main reason I never played ocean maps in previous Civs. Now I love oceans.


Negatives:
The ridiculous amount to time between turns.

The importance of getting off to a good start. Not that this is true of all civs/victory paths, but in general, I tend to quit somewhat early if I know there's little chance to win.
 
My civ experiences are totally with Civ5. I never played earlier versions of the game. With that in mind, I can't really make good/bad comparisons. My major complaints about the game are mostly diplomacy related. There needs to be more options and consequences.

An example that comes to mind that irritates me, is if you get your army too near someone's border and they call you out. You basically have to declare war then or become a back stabber if you do it later. I would like to have this option as well. Many times, you see carpets of doom moving towards you. I would like the option of calling them out as well.

The diplomatic victory needs to be tweaked somehow. It is the easiest condition to meet at lower difficulty levels. Simply get a few patronage policies and buy your way to victory. I wish it was a little more to it than that. Like convincing a friendly civ to support your bid for world leader. Possibly add friendship quests with other civs, similar to CS quests. Donations of gold, resources, and units could be positive modifiers. Trade routes could increase relations, ect.
 
An example that comes to mind that irritates me, is if you get your army too near someone's border and they call you out. You basically have to declare war then or become a back stabber if you do it later. I would like to have this option as well. Many times, you see carpets of doom moving towards you. I would like the option of calling them out as well.

If I remember correctly, this is already in the game ... check the different Diplomacy screens, not only the Trade screen, to get an overview on your diplomatic options.
 
Things I don't like:

1. Warmonger hate. I'm okay with concept, but not with the implementation. If someone attacks me, I should be able to take his cities without a penalty. I should be able to help friends without them accusing me being a warmonger afterwards. Etc pp.

2. No more vassal system. I don't want to fight someone, then cannot annihilate him because warmonger and from then on for the next 3000 years that guy is a Pita.

3. CV / tourism forces you to tech so far into the tree, it's just a different sort of SV

4. Science is too important, Units become obsolete too fast (i.e. Cannon vs Arty or Rifles vs Infantry). Science is basically everything.

5. Conquering cities feels like a burden, not like a reward.
 
If you don't make unit production or purchase costs high enough (relative to income), or implement arbitrary production limits (e.g. the "unit limit your empire can support is ..... oh no! you have too many units, now you suffer a production bonus!") you will end up with games where the map is flooded with units on every tile.... the colloquial "carpet of doom", if you will.

I understand the relation between 1UPT and higher production costs, I just don't think that it's a problem. It's not like most things will take that long to build even with the increased costs, and if it is too much for your liking then you can always play on quick speed.

"Reaching a point where everything is a 1-turn build," is way extreme, so you can't use that as a valid argument.

It's not extreme at all. Most newly-unlocked units/buildings can be built in a decent city within 4-8 turns as it is. If the game had Civ IV's costs, you'd have your best cities churning something new out every 1-2 turns. Stealth bombers, mech infantry, hydro plants, hospitals, etc. were only 200 hammers. When even the biggest builds are that cheap, there's no point in even making you build them. There's no investment, no opportunity cost, no risk vs. reward contemplation, it's just mindless button clicking.
 
Units become obsolete too fast

This is related to Science Progress in Play Time which highly depends on Game Speed and on map size. Using Quick Speed on a Duel Map gives you a new tech almost every turn, which is totally different from playing Marathon on Huge / Giant Map where a game may last a week (or more).

For some classes there are new unit types for every Era, e.g.

UNITCLASS_WARRIOR
UNITCLASS_SWORDSMAN
UNITCLASS_LONGSWORDSMAN
UNITCLASS_MUSKETMAN
UNITCLASS_RIFLEMAN
UNITCLASS_GREAT_WAR_INFANTRY
UNITCLASS_INFANTRY
UNITCLASS_MECHANIZED_INFANTRY

The game allows you to upgrade your units if you have enough Gold. Maybe the Upgrade Costs have to be rebalanced since differences between neighbouring unit types are small.
Another solution would be an option to reduce the number of new unit types in TechTree for Quick Speed, e.g. have a new unit type only every 2nd era.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorHammerz View Post
If you don't make unit production or purchase costs high enough (relative to income), or implement arbitrary production limits (e.g. the "unit limit your empire can support is ..... oh no! you have too many units, now you suffer a production bonus!") you will end up with games where the map is flooded with units on every tile.... the colloquial "carpet of doom", if you will.

I understand the relation between 1UPT and higher production costs,

High production costs slow down the build up of a huge army and slow down replacement of lost units. The size of an army in real life is also limited by available resources (e.g. Oil), upkeep costs (don't use more armies than you need to achive your goals) and logistics (you cannot use more armies than you can effectively supply).

Nations in war time usually borrow money (credit) to rush buy weapons, supplies / conscript armies, e.g. Germany in WW2 went from 100.000 soldiers in 1933 to ca 10.000.000 in 1944, USA went from 600.000 in 1939 to almost 15 million in 1944.
 
High production costs slow down the build up of a huge army and slow down replacement of lost units. The size of an army in real life is also limited by available resources (e.g. Oil), upkeep costs (don't use more armies than you need to achive your goals) and logistics (you cannot use more armies than you can effectively supply).

Nations in war time usually borrow money (credit) to rush buy weapons, supplies / conscript armies, e.g. Germany in WW2 went from 100.000 soldiers in 1933 to ca 10.000.000 in 1944, USA went from 600.000 in 1939 to almost 15 million in 1944.

Those are quite some numbers you got there. I know that greece was trying to collect ww2 debts off of germany a couple of months ago. I wonder how much they owed?
 
This is an excellent list! Numbers 2, 3, and 7 on your positive list are very interesting observations about core design elements.

Thanks. I agree with a lot of the criticisms regarding the awkwardness of 1UPT, but I like many of the changes that are linked to it (slowed production is a better fit for the game pace and limits the amount of tedious unit spam required by the older games) - the one I listed is among the more subtle and less-discussed, but it really does give a sense of genuine change over time rather than "my units have bigger stat bonuses now". Air power has been treated differently from other units since Civ III, but aircraft didn't really change the way wars played - I think Civ V is the first game to really nail it.

As for your negative list:
I'm not really sure that your criticism of ideologies is fair. You can think of this as an abstraction of something akin to "regime change".

I'm not opposed to the general idea, but to the extreme impact it has on the late game: everything in the late game is about ideology, and you have very little ability to influence which ideology long-time allies adopt (quite unlike reality, really). So you can find yourself at loggerheads with a formerly dependable ally just because they were the second to reach the Modern era and the AI likes to take an available ideology with free tenets over one that matches its allies'. And while the idea of replicating the Cold War is nice, there isn't actually a way within the game to really simulate Cold War conditions - proxy wars rapidly lead to real wars.

Having ideology affecting all powers equally is necessary as long as the game doesn't really have a way of distinguishing between players performing well and those performing badly in its modifier system, but it's not very satisfactory. During the Cold War, the US simultaneously existed in a state of cold war with the Soviet Union while according Most Favoured Nation trading status to China, and while it was concerned about a 'domino effect' turning India Communist, no one cared about India's choice of government in and of itself, only for the extra influence it would have given their main rivals. No one planned an invasion of Madagascar during its communist era, and so forth.

A civ will only really care about ideological choices of its major rivals - BNW even offers a mechanism to simulate this: just have a diplo modifier based on a civ's cultural influence over other powers (negative if that civ has an opposing ideology, positive if the ideology is shared). In general, ideologically differences will be subservient to all the other factors that make two major powers rivals to begin with.

There's also no post-ideology era; once ideology comes into play, games play basically identically every game, with ideology blocks squaring off and wiping out the weaker powers.

The same applies for changing civics in Civ IV or government types in earlier Civ games. If a society changes its core, fundamental beliefs, then yes you should expect that their relations with other societies will change. I think the only real problem is that your civ's "personality" and none of your earlier development choices influence your ideology.

That definitely is an issue - BE's affinity development offered an interesting model for a future Civ game's ideology system in principle, but was a great disappointment in practice.

I wouldn't mind a system in which your ideology emerged organically from choices earlier in the game, or if those choices would be mechanically enforced by the game. For example, building a trade-based empire and dominating the world economy through trade routes and resource exchanges could perhaps give your civ a bias towards adopting Freedom. Conquering other civs would give you more bias towards Autocracy. These biases could affect the cost of adopting those ideologies (i.e. higher biases make them cheaper to adopt so that you can adopt them earlier and benefit from them longer), or it could affect happiness levels after adopting the ideology, or it could affect the strength of the actual tenets.

All good ideas (though conquering the world biasing you against a democratic, trade-based ideology plays against the real-world history of the British Empire...)

As for random events: those have proven very unpopular from what I've heard. Also, the idea of completely random events is kind of absurd except for maybe weather and natural disasters.

Civ IV implemented random events very poorly, with effects that were often too unbalancing and simply too common, but that shouldn't be taken as a reason to eschew random events altogether. We already have randomness from huts, after all (and I mourn the loss - in both Civ IV and Civ V - of barbarian spawns from villages. Exploration should have its perils). And events need not be fully random, but can be things that your decisions can influence - for instance, following the original Civ board game, volcanoes are only in certain areas and you're only going to be hit with floods along major watercourses like the Nile. There was a good Civ V mod that added a plague and health system, where plague would strike randomly if you didn't maintain good city health.

It was too unbalanced to make for good gameplay, since the health structures weren't things the AI ever prioritised building so your AI rivals invariably got wiped out by plague and/or acted as reservoirs that spread disease to your own cities even with good health management, but it would be a very good basis for a disease system if Civ VI were to incorporate one from the ground up and code the AI accordingly. Other manageable events like civil wars or, indeed, uprisings would be welcome - Total War games have always had ways to simulate this, though not always well (and in the first two Civ games, widespread unhappiness would lead to civil wars).

What I think really needs to be changed in this game is the fact that you can only have 1 of each wonder. If 2 people are building a wonder at the same time and one person gets it 1 or 2 turns sooner the other person gets practically nothing for their efforts.

That's the whole point of Wonders - change that, and you may as well remove them altogether. As another poster mentioned, this is a cornerstone of the series. More importantly from a design standpoint, Civ is a series that has traditionally allowed very little meaningful interaction between players - it's not a game like chess where you get to directly respond to an opponent's moves by countering them with your own, or like Starcraft where you can actively deny the opponent resources. You can manipulate them in ways that help you (such as tech trading), but you can't do very much, aside from occasional espionage missions, to actively set your rivals back. All you can really do is optimise your strategy so that you win the race to the finish, or go to war to finish off rivals dangerously close to victory. Wonders are the one big exception to this, the one tool you have that can actively deny options to an opponent rather than just helping you get ahead faster.
 
What I think really needs to be changed in this game is the fact that you can only have 1 of each wonder. If 2 people are building a wonder at the same time and one person gets it 1 or 2 turns sooner the other person gets practically nothing for their efforts.

Lets think about this logically, no society is going to scrap a project that's nearly complete. For game balance it just makes sense and makes the game less luck based. IMO if you are more than half done with a wonder when it is completed you should be able to complete it as well.

This would drastically reduce wonder ragers in MP and IMO is just a better mechanic. At the moment you can lose a wonder the same turn you complete it to some one simply because they joined the lobby before you. uh what? Worst mechanic ever.

What do you think of wonders that are designed somewhere along the lines of:

- A first-to-get effect
- Second effect (that doesn't care if you were the first to build)

So something along the lines of:

Hanging Gardens:
- Provides + 5 food
- First-to-build gains +1 free population in the city built (i.e. a watered down effect of HG from Civ 4 :lol:)
- Up to 3 may be built across the world, maximum of 1 per player.

Numbers used are purely arbitrary.

So they would work kind of like the World Congress projects? I could imagine that working.

Another, similar option would be to get a consolation prize of a building AND gold. For example, most wonders in Civ V are "greater" versions of standard buildings, and many of them provide free versions of the standard building. For example, the Great Library provides a free library, the Great Lighthouse provides a free lighthouse, the Great Mosque provides a free mosque. Perhaps every wonder should be a "greater" version of a standard building.

In that case, if someone beats you to a wonder, you can receive a consolation prize based on the following rules:
  • 1.) Production is converted to the standard building if one doesn't already exist in the city. i.e. if you had 20 hammers invested in Great Library, and someone else builds it, and you don't already have a library in that city, then your 20 hammers convert to production towards a standard library.
  • 2.) If the production towards the wonder exceeds the production required to build the standard building (or the building already exists in the city), then the player gets the standard building (if it doesn't already exist) and gets a consolation based on the difference in the amount of hammers invested towards the wonder and the cost of the building. This consolation could be a couple different things:
    • a.) The standard building gets upgraded to produce +1 culture, since you invested more towards making it a "great" building. In this case, all wonders should also generate at least 1 culture in order to eliminate exploits.
    • b.) You get gold based on the difference in production between the standard building and the wonder.

This would help to make wonder-building feel less like "wasted time", since at the very least, the production can be converted to the standard building. You also get a bit more "bang for your buck", since the priority is for the production to be converted to production for a different building at a 1:1 ratio before trying to convert it using the production to gold exchange rate. It also means that you can't spend the production overflow towards a different wonder, like people would do in earlier versions of Civ.

But I'm definitely in agreement with CraigMak that there should not be more than 1 copy of a world wonder in any given game.
 
Congratulations, I loved both of your articles, and agreed with most of their poins! Great work! Now, for a little more commentary:

Top 10 good ideas

10. Customizable religion: One of my favourites, would be on my personal top 3. It brought a much needed element that adds flavour and min-max strategies to this game

9. The pact of secrecy - which was removed - and preparing for war: I also love the concept behind this idea, plotting the murder of another civ with aid from others has a lot of potential, but the actual implementation was sloppy at best, as a result from the always embrionary diplomatic system

8. Tactical, 1upt, hex-based combat: I hope that this is a keeper for the series. Yes, it needs a bit more of tweaking and it can get cucumbersome in the late era, but it made wars fun for me, a 101% builder type of player, and I will be forever grateful for that. A fine-tuned limited-units-per-hex combat in the next Civ iteration would be awesomesauce

7. Cumulative cultural progress (social policies). A surprising addition to the series, they only got it "right" at the second expansion. It poses a series of problems (too same-y cultural strategies, mainly, not enough differenciation) but the core idea behind it (culture helping to build and shape your civilization) is awesome

6. Strategic resource supply. Nifty little touch, but not near the top 3 for me

5. Archaeology, great works, and tourism. YES. I specially loved how much archeology added to the late game exploration of the game, and I do hope that they mantain or refine this type of system

4. Natural Wonders. The more flavour, the merrier. Me likes!

3. City States. I am frankly not in love with this concept as some of your guys are. First, they make domination a pain in the ass (gotta occuppy all the CS in the world) and secondly, they are far too game-y for my tastes, and they make diplomatic victory has little to do with diplomacy. This is a patch that tries to mend a very incomplete diplomatic system, not a feature, IMHO

2. Notification-based user interface. Oh yes, absolutely. Can't argue with that point, it is damn great.

1. Civilization unique traits, units, buildings, improvements, etc. Hell yes. As a history fan, I hate to see people clamoring for more customizable, blander civs a la Beyond Earth. Differenciation is the salt of the Earth, and making each faction a "skins" is downright lame game design. Unique traits, buildings and improvements increases the game's replayability twofold.

Top 10 bad ideas

10. Can't raze capitals. They should have really limited that restriction to major civilization's capitals rather than extended it to CS, me thinks.

9. Insta heal. Disagree, it offers a quite cool opportunity cost decision to the upgrades.

8. Chariot archer and anti-mounted upgrade paths. Totally agree. I think that they should just skilp chariots altogether for the next civ, just make them a specialized horseman version for certian civs like Egypt and roll with it

7. Warmonger hate. Agreed but it got one bajillion times better in the previous patch , which toned it down to reasonable levels. The problem is that the AI doesn't make distinctions between wars of agression and deffensive wars: it will consider you a warmonger if after repealling an invasion you go on and further occupy your rival's cities.

6. Removing cinematics and lowering production values. Absolutely, 100% agree. I don't know what virus cought Firaxis, but it is clear that they have cared each time less and less for flavour and overall ambient, deciding to focus their resources into graphics and unoptimized graphic engines instead. A very poor production decision, I don't need my strategy games to be pretty I need them to be inmersive, which is something entirely different

5. Linear tech tree. Well, this is kinda inavoidable. It doesn't bugs me too much, but I get where do you come from

4. Snowballing, lack of viable catch-up mechanics and runaway controls. This so much. The happiness system failed HARD in order to curb snowballing civs and regulating expansion on a continuus manner. Go back to the drawing board, Firaxis

3. Forcing small-scall tactical combat onto a large-scale nation-state map. Meh. This is a small price to pay for having a combat that doesn't suck badly as it happened with my beloved civ 4

2. NO SUPPORT FOR MODS IN MULTIPLAYER. "Most moddable civ yet!" lmao

1. Focus on "strategy board game" feel rather than empire-management sim. This, this, THIS X 1000. Screw that game design philosophy focused into board games. I love board games, but the developers wholly misunderstood them. Boardgames main strenght comes from the human-to human interaction, which is impossible to replicate here since AI's doesn't cut it and we don't share intimacy with our fellow anonymous, faceless online human players. Remove these elements, and boardgames becomes extremely dry affairs as it happened with vainilla Civ 5. For the next game I want something with more meat on it and more engaging than a mere Catan Online redux
 
I'm confused by this statement:

3. City States. I am frankly not in love with this concept as some of your guys are. First, they make domination a pain in the ass (gotta occuppy all the CS in the world) ...

There is no need to capture or occupy any CSs for a domination victory. Only major civ capitals count. Just check the victory progress screen.
 
10. Can't raze capitals. They should have really limited that restriction to major civilization's capitals rather than extended it to CS, me thinks.

While this has never much bothered me it's not even necessary for capitals even with the victory conditions as they are. Since G&K there have been situations where city-states can be destroyed completely (namely, annexation by Austria or Venice), thus affecting the overall votes available for diplo victory. There's no good reason domination victory has to offer the possibility of recapturing a capital (which will rarely happen anyway).

And the whole could have been avoided by just using the original victory condition - I imagine it's a more complex process to code a simplified domination condition that limits certain cities from being destroyed than it is to just code "you win the game if you control everything".

6. Removing cinematics and lowering production values. Absolutely, 100% agree. I don't know what virus cought Firaxis, but it is clear that they have cared each time less and less for flavour and overall ambient, deciding to focus their resources into graphics and unoptimized graphic engines instead. A very poor production decision, I don't need my strategy games to be pretty I need them to be inmersive, which is something entirely different

I don't care about the cinematics, but the overall sense of immersion has been falling at least since Civ IV dropped the classic Civ interface design and replaced Civilopedia descriptions that open when you research a tech with bland (if well-narrated) quotes, along with the ever-reducing importance of the scoreboard comparison with historical leaders at the end; and arguably since the castle was dropped (I think from Civ III). Leonard Nimoy and a good soundtrack don't make up for losing the sense that you're playing through history.

4. Snowballing, lack of viable catch-up mechanics and runaway controls. This so much. The happiness system failed HARD in order to curb snowballing civs and regulating expansion on a continuus manner. Go back to the drawing board, Firaxis

This is not a new issue for Civ V - it's been part of the series since the start, in large part because Civ games are not dynamic and - as I mentioned in another post - don't offer many tools for directly interacting with other players' strategies. In Civ IV, if you were ahead by more than a couple of hundred points you stayed ahead - the ever-present score screen showing civs getting ahead of each other by a few points if they teched or settled a new city a turn or two earlier, and then the leading civ taking over again when they caught up, led to an illusion of dynamism that was never really present.

1. Focus on "strategy board game" feel rather than empire-management sim. This, this, THIS X 1000. Screw that game design philosophy focused into board games. I love board games, but the developers wholly misunderstood them. Boardgames main strenght comes from the human-to human interaction, which is impossible to replicate here since AI's doesn't cut it and we don't share intimacy with our fellow anonymous, faceless online human players.

Many board games are very enjoyable online, from chess onwards, without any face-to-face interaction; to the extent that there's now an extremely popular Tabletop Simulator that allows people to mod their favoured board games to play with online players - a wholly pointless exercise if all you get out of board games is face to face interaction. I know some people approach board games this way, but it's by no means "misunderstanding" them to take a different approach. Many boardgames are genuinely good strategy games regardless of whether they're played online or in person.
 
I'm confused by this statement:

There is no need to capture or occupy any CSs for a domination victory. Only major civ capitals count. Just check the victory progress screen.

Welp, this was a brain fart from my part :S

I don't care about the cinematics, but the overall sense of immersion has been falling at least since Civ IV dropped the classic Civ interface design and replaced Civilopedia descriptions that open when you research a tech with bland (if well-narrated) quotes, along with the ever-reducing importance of the scoreboard comparison with historical leaders at the end; and arguably since the castle was dropped (I think from Civ III). Leonard Nimoy and a good soundtrack don't make up for losing the sense that you're playing through history.

*nods vigorously* exactly. When people talk about inmersion, some videogame producers think that players are demanding more "AAA oomph", aka more money trew at the problem (like Beyond's Earth expensive intro cinematics) but as you wisely pointed out, there's more to it. A couple of small, not too expensive dettails can go a long way for building a breathing, living world out what it is, essentially, a board game. Where's my top cities of the world ranking with each wonder on them for me to compare my incredible cities? Why not using animated paintings such as Hearthstone's golden cards instead of mere inanimate pictures for wonders or victories? Why cannot we have each leader have their own quotes and expressions, a la "leader's text" mod? Why cannot we have different leaders version with each passing age a la Civ 3, now that we're at it?

This is not a new issue for Civ V - it's been part of the series since the start, in large part because Civ games are not dynamic and - as I mentioned in another post - don't offer many tools for directly interacting with other players' strategies. In Civ IV, if you were ahead by more than a couple of hundred points you stayed ahead - the ever-present score screen showing civs getting ahead of each other by a few points if they teched or settled a new city a turn or two earlier, and then the leading civ taking over again when they caught up, led to an illusion of dynamism that was never really present.

I am not single-ing out Civ V for this, for as you've mentioned, this is a chronic problem of the series, like the linearity of the tech tree. But I cannot help but feeling that Civ 4's manteinance system was a a way better system to avoid runaway empires, for you needed far more time and development for a big empire to "digest" their newly acquired territories.

Many board games are very enjoyable online, from chess onwards, without any face-to-face interaction; to the extent that there's now an extremely popular Tabletop Simulator that allows people to mod their favoured board games to play with online players - a wholly pointless exercise if all you get out of board games is face to face interaction. I know some people approach board games this way, but it's by no means "misunderstanding" them to take a different approach. Many boardgames are genuinely good strategy games regardless of whether they're played online or in person.

Yes, these types of games exist and can be enjoyable too. Hell, I am a sucker for Hearthstone afterall ;) But I cannot help but feeling that turning Civilization into a more boardagme-like game is akin to taking one videogame RPG like the Witcher back into its pencil and dice roots. It sacrifices a lot (flavour, inmersion, complexity) for a very paltry return (cleaner game design, better multiplayer component), and it has lead to some erroneous game design decisions due to refusing to acknowdegle that different mediums have different strenghts and limitations.

Keep in mind that by "erroneous game design decisions" I am not talking about personal preferences, like the perennial debate of "boardgame VS historical simulation" either, for both postures are legitimate in their own right, but I am saying that in wanting to apply some boardgame concepts to the design of this game, the creators felt into some of the traps of the aforementioned medium.

For example, keeping a "clear game design" is a staple of board games, which does indeed benefit for not demanding the players to keep track of one bajillion different counters, variables and calculations in play. But that is something wholly inconsequential to videogames, for computers can perform lots of background calculations and keep track of variables with little to no hassle for the player's enjoyement.

When this design philosophy was applied to Civ V (like the creation of the happiness system, a very straightfoward "wide VS tall" expansion regulation system that drew from board game expertise) it failed initially, as it needed a far more extensive legion of caveats and exceptions to the rule (local VS global happiness, gradual and scalable penalties, etc, etc) than expected in order to make it work, and even then it hasn't worked as good as other systems, whereas the obscure, complex, and wholly unsuitable for boargames Civ 4 manteinance system made a far better job and needed little adjustment after the game's launch. Same thing can be said about other game subsystems, also built with simplicity and gamification on mind (diplomacy comes first to mind), and, uncoincidentally, the more the developers strayed from the gameboard paradygm, the better their other systems became (archeology, religions, social policies, etc).
 
I am not single-ing out Civ V for this, for as you've mentioned, this is a chronic problem of the series, like the linearity of the tech tree. But I cannot help but feeling that Civ 4's manteinance system was a a way better system to avoid runaway empires, for you needed far more time and development for a big empire to "digest" their newly acquired territories.

I don't think constraining expansion is the main problem; as I say, I think the main problem is the fundamental lack of interaction. In any race, the fastest wins - it's not common for a lagging competitor to overtake, and any movement will be between the top couple of civs. You get exactly the same in Grand Prix racing.

The reason they're getting ahead (which I'd argue is mainly with the series' 'science is everything' approach, another inheritance from the board game; in all Civ games bigger civs are better for varied reasons, but largely because more pop/workable tiles = more science) is not the problem so much as the inability to do anything to derail the leader's strategy. You can't usually go to war successfully against a leading civ, because a lead tends to include a technologically superior military, a larger economy to maintain more units, and greater production output. You can't monopolise key strategic resources for the same basic reason: the civ that has the resources has the edge. With that ruled out, there aren't any ways of imposing effective sanctions on other players.

Yes, these types of games exist and can be enjoyable too. Hell, I am a sucker for Hearthstone afterall ;) But I cannot help but feeling that turning Civilization into a more boardagme-like game is akin to taking one videogame RPG like the Witcher back into its pencil and dice roots. It sacrifices a lot (flavour, inmersion, complexity) for a very paltry return (cleaner game design, better multiplayer component), and it has lead to some erroneous game design decisions due to refusing to acknowdegle that different mediums have different strenghts and limitations.

I think returning Civ to its board game roots is a good move - the original computer version was a lot closer to the board game's level of complexity and feel than either Civ IV or Civ V, and it was a formula that led to the series' original success with good reason. Civ IV may well have been a fine game of Sim Empire, but I feel the series had already lost its core flavour and sense of immersion by that point. Min-maxing stat bonuses that are presented, nakedly, as stat bonuses is fine strategy gaming but it hardly gives the feel of playing a real historical progression once cities become no more than game units to specialise for specific types of production.

When this design philosophy was applied to Civ V (like the creation of the happiness system, a very straightfoward "wide VS tall" expansion regulation system that drew from board game expertise) it failed initially, as it needed a far more extensive legion of caveats and exceptions to the rule (local VS global happiness, gradual and scalable penalties, etc, etc) than expected in order to make it work, and even then it hasn't worked as good as other systems, whereas the obscure, complex, and wholly unsuitable for boargames Civ 4 manteinance system made a far better job and needed little adjustment after the game's launch.

There's a lot of merit to this argument, but I don't think it's a binary thing. Clean design certainly benefits computer games as well as board games, since a strategy gamer needs to be able to understand at a glance what effect their decisions are having. Global happiness ultimately ended up being a messy system - its failing was that it was not a clean design; simple is not the same as clean. By contrast, Brave New World - with its restricted early game access to gold - made the maintenance cost of roads and buildings a more important constraint on early expansion, and importantly one that scaled well over time as trade route availability increased (by the time you were rolling in cash, the system had performed its function of curtailing early expansion). That was a clean, elegant system that should probably have altogether replaced global happiness in Civ V's final iteration - there's no need for anything as involved as Civ IV's maintenance system to add unnecessary complexity for no real purpose beyond making the actual gameplay seem more complex than it was.

Same thing can be said about other game subsystems, also built with simplicity and gamification on mind (diplomacy comes first to mind)

Whatever the criticisms of Civ V's diplomacy, it can't really be accused of being simple mechanically - that's one reason the AI struggles with it so much more than in the older titles (and indeed why many players often struggled with it early on). Diplomacy in every other Civ game is just a trade screen where all that differs is what you have the option to trade, much more suitable for board games than tracking research agreement progress or who's currently friends with who.
 
What I think really needs to be changed in this game is the fact that you can only have 1 of each wonder. If 2 people are building a wonder at the same time and one person gets it 1 or 2 turns sooner the other person gets practically nothing for their efforts.

Lets think about this logically, no society is going to scrap a project that's nearly complete. For game balance it just makes sense and makes the game less luck based. IMO if you are more than half done with a wonder when it is completed you should be able to complete it as well.

This would drastically reduce wonder ragers in MP and IMO is just a better mechanic. At the moment you can lose a wonder the same turn you complete it to some one simply because they joined the lobby before you. uh what? Worst mechanic ever.

I think this could be addressed by increasing the fail gold significantly or maybe have some fail bonus where if you put enough hammers into the project you get something out of it.
So Great Library - if you are put more than 75 hammers you get a free library (still with maintenance) and if more than 75 hammers you get fail gold on top whereas if you only put in 60 hammers you get 60 hammers worth of failgold.

Pyramids - a free worker

Parthenon/Oracle - a free amphitheatre....

Of course you are going to struggle finding a fail substitute for every Wonder so this mechanism could just be reserved for ancient or classical Wonders. If you miss a medieval or renaissance Wonder it's no the end of the world but missing an ancient/classical wonder is much more punishing because you are often delaying settlers and other infrastructure in a gamble that you really need to pay off.


The other thing that should be done here is to increase the requirements to unlock Wonders. At least then you can't get a city with 10 ancient and classical era wonders.
They did this a little bit with Social Policies and now it makes it usually a bit easier to get some wonders like the Hanging Gardens for instance...
But I think they could further
Great Library for example could have a a requirement for 3 libraries to exist in your civ. So it's not something you can rush, you've got to establish your economy and cities first so then if you do happen to miss it (well it's not like you just wasted 20 early turns for nothing)
Mausoleum of Halicarnissus should require a source of stone or marble?
 
I don't like it if I loose a Wonder Race against a civ I haven't even met, e.g. when civs are building the Pyramids in Eurasia and the Americas before both parts of the world get in contact and then some strange God turns the loosing projects into cash. History has shown that e.g. pyramids were build in many cultures all over the world.

Yeah, they were. But there's only one Great Pyramid. Getting beaten doesn't mean your civ stops construction, it means your construction doesn't stand the test of time.
 
What I love this game is trade routes and ideology.

What I don't like is my trade routes being plundered and the negative happiness due to rival ideology:lol:

What I really hate is warmonger penalties, why can't I say sack Copenhagen when Harold invades my lands and sacks one of my cities? That's one of the truths about real wars - expansion through war. I would understand warmonger hate IF I was the aggressor!:confused:

What I miss from IV was the roaming wild animals that acted like barbs - added a bit of immersion, other threats than barbs and civs.

Quite like the single tile combat but would like to see this enhanced next game with say a defensive specialist unit that could fight in the same tile as an archer or something, not a massive stack just two units per tile.
 
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