A Detailed Game For You To Examine & Comment On

[Nevordan]

Well, if this is the only way for me to learn how to play this hellish game, then I suppose I have no choice. I was quite thorough, taking the time each turn to write down exactly what I did. So this post will be long. I hope you have the patience to read it. The saved games will be included (the new game, and the last turn I played). I will also try to include screen shots, so I may have to edit this post a few times to get it right.

This is a Warlords game, and my first (well, my first serious one). I played as Ragnar on a Standard Continents Map (Temperate/Medium Sea Level). You can look at what I've done so far, but I will not continue playing until I get some feedback. If I have done too many things wrong, so be it. I will learn from that I suppose. But if I have done some things right, let me know. I want to find out exactly what my problem is so I can get over and start WINNING. So... here is a cut-and-pasted turn by turn list:



4000 BC: Settled in place. Growth in 11 turns. Started building a worker. Popped the hut on the left for a map. Starting researching Agriculture (for the corn, and then Animal Husbandry for the pigs). Changed mind on worker and built a scout instead (8 turns instead of 15 for the worker).
3960 BC - 3840 BC: Continued scouting out the map with the scout.
3800 BC: Capital's borders grew and popped the hut on the right for Animal Husbandry.
3760 BC - 3720 BC: Continued scouting the map.
3680 BC: Finished researching Agriculture. Started researching mining for the many hills. Continued scouting.
3640 BC: Population reached 2, scout will be completed in 1 more turn. Scout found a nice location with gems, elephants, corn, sugar and a lake for fresh water.



3600 BC: At population 2 the scout is finished, and a worker is now being built and will finish in 12 turns. The second scout is sent out in a new direction down south.
3560 BC: Still scouting around.
3520 BC: A crap-load of desert to the south, but horses in sight. And a hut for each scout can be popped on the next turn.



3480 BC: Popped a hut with each scout. One for 22 gold, the other XP.
3440 BC: Mining is researched. Now going for Bronze Working. Continued scouting.
3400 BC: Promoted a scout to Woodsman II.
3360 BC - 3320 BC: Still uncovering the map with these damned scouts.
3280 BC: Popped a hut for Archery. That's two free techs so far. Not too shabby.
3240 BC: Still uncovering the map.
3200 BC: Met Washington. Powdered wig and wooden teeth. Smoked hemp.
3160 BC: Got into a scrap with some wolves and kept scouting.
3120 BC: Worker completed. Growth in 7 more turns. Chose to build a warrior (7 turns). Started moving towards to pigs since they give 6 food and the corn only gives 5 (not irrigated).
3080 BC: Workers begin building a pasture on the pigs, the scouts keep scouting as scouts do.
3040 BC - 3000 BC: Uneventful scouting.
2960 BC: Bronze Working is finished. Holding off slavery until pop 3/warrior. Began researching The Wheel.
2920 BC: Someone founded Buddhism. Damn that was slow. The pig farm is completed, so now they're headed for the corn.
2880 BC: Lions nearly ate one of the scouts. Warrior is completed. Since a settler can be built in 12 turns, and 3 population is seldom enough to whip a settler until it's too late anyway, I hold of enabling the slavery civic for now and build a settler while the warrior heads to the new city location (gems, bronze, marble). The worker is working on the corn farm now. The wounded scout is healing on a forested hill, hoping not to bleed all over it.
2840 BC: The healthy scout continues up north looking for rival cities. They can't be too far, the bastards.
2800 BC: Ghandi shows up being all Ghandi-ish. I think I may have found a better site for bronze.
2760 BC: I'm torn between two city sites. Both settle on the bronze, but one gets the gems and not the marble... tough choice.
2720 BC: I decided my 1st decision was probably the best, despite the forest. I'll be able to cut them down eventually, so there.
2680 BC: The Wheel is complete. Mysticism is next for monuments. I am not creative, after all. The worker is now headed for a hill to build a mine.
2640 BC: Worker (that's his name) started building the mine. The wounded scout finally healed up, and so he's back off to discover whatever the hell's out there.
2600 BC: Scouted and scouted more.
2560 BC: Someone founded Hinduism. Usually these guys are so much quicker to found a religion. They must have lost their faith like I have.
2520 BC: Finally found Ghandi's humble home. In the tundra. Ha! How do YOU like it?
2480 BC: 1st settler is complete, and he's off to the site I planned out. Now I build a barracks (4 turns). The mine is complete, and the city seems to like using it, so the worker is off to build another 1 Food/3 Production/1 Commerce mine.
2440 BC: Mysticism is complete. Now I feel like I'm in the poor house, so I get to work on Pottery. Maybe making dish-ware is too girly for Vikings, but what the hell. We all need a pot to piss in. And Vikings are financial, apparently. I didn't know they were so good with money. The game doesn't seem to like my choice of city location, but I couldn't care less what THIS game wants.
2400 BC: Settler is getting close to the new site that the warrior is fortified on.
2360 BC: I disagree with the game's suggestion. I will sacrifice the marble for some sugar. Bah! I'll get sugar in my 3rd city, so there.
2320 BC: Barracks completed in the capital. Grows in 3 turns. A warrior will take 3 turns, so I build it. He will go and guard the 3rd city site I have planned out in my head, which is near a lake and will provide sugar, ivory, corn, and gems, and a few hills on top of that. The settler forms my 2nd city right where I wanted, and I begin building a monument there.
2280 BC: The 2nd mine in the capital is finished, but I still don't have Pottery, so I build another mine on a grassland hill.
2240 BC: The warrior is completed and moved to the 3rd city site. The population will grow in 1 turn so I build an archer for defense (4 turns).
2220 BC - 2200 BC: The warrior makes his way to the 3rd city site.
2160 BC: Pottery is done. I need to know where the iron is, and it will take 17 turns to do so. But at least I will have copper in any case.
2120 BC: The warrior was attacked by a panther and was wounded, so he'll heal up for now. The scouts found Ghandi's 2nd city. I suppose Washington must be in the upper east portion of the map, which is all that is left to uncover on this continent. I hope.
2080 BC: The archer is complete. The population is 4 and grows in 1 turn, but a settler can be built in 7 turns thanks to the overflow, so I go for that. The 3rd mine is complete and I feel the need to build cottages on the grassland near the river.
2040 BC: Ghandi has horses already. Blech.
2000 BC: But soon I'll have elephants!
1960 BC: The Most Advanced Civilizations... I am 3rd in the tech race. Somehow.
1920 BC: The monument in the 2nd city is complete and a barracks is now in the works. Usually this would be a granary, but the barbarians in Warlords seem more aggressive.
1880 BC: Some stinky smelly barbarians have killed my Woodsman II scout. You will all pay for this!
1840 BC: My Woodsman I scout is hiding in some trees looking stupid. Somehow I don't think he'll do any better.
1800 BC: 2nd settler is complete. He's on his way to the 3rd city site. Time for a granary at population 4, and growth in 1 turn.
1760 BC: Time to enable slavery at pop 5. Building another cottage in the capital.
1770 BC: The game doesn't like my 3rd city choice either. But I again refuse to give a damn. Jungle does not equal worthless.
1680 BC: I whip the granary in my capital because the happiness cap is about to crack. This is the least amount of whipping I've ever done. Usually I whip my people's brains out.
1640 BC: My other scout is murdered by those barf-smelling barbarians. Now I am scout-less. The overflow from whipping the granary allows me to build a worker in 4 turns, so I do it. My 3rd city has now been settled, and a monument is in its queue. Now it seems Ghandi has sent his warrior down to check out MY land. That is forbidden and punishable by death, you know. Curiosity is a virtue that will leave you dead and mangled in a ditch, I says.
1600 BC: My current worker needs to build roads from the capital to the closest city, and he gets to it.
1560 BC: The worker is still building roads.
1520 BC: 2nd Worker (his name also) is complete, and begins hooking up the pigs and corn, something I didn't have time for earlier. Health wasn't an issue then but it is starting to become one, or will be. Sometime in the future. Seeing as how Vikings never bath. The barracks in the 2nd city are complete and I begin on an archer for defense, and build an archer in the capital as well since it will take 4 turns, and the population will also grow in 4 turns. The archer in the 2nd city will take 8 turns, since there's nothing there but humid jungle.
1480 BC: Iron Working is finished. I go for masonry for the marble in my 2nd city, but it seems iron is nowhere in any of my cities thus far. There is one just outside my 3rd city, and one near the water. The borders of my 2nd city expand and trap Ghandi's loser warrior. Here is where I quit for now. I want to hear what you think of my decision making skills or lack thereof. And what the hell should I do next?

 

[Winston Hughes]

Can't check the saves, but it sounds like you're doing alright so far. Perhaps just playing a game for public scrutiny will help you get into a winning mindset.

If possible, more screenshots (esp. one of your empire as it stands, and one of your capital's city screen) would help those of us who can't access the saves to assess your progress.

Oh, and btw, I find your brand of game-hating cynicism to be most entertaining.

 

[Nevordan]

Can't check the saves, but it sounds like you're doing alright so far. Perhaps just playing a game for public scrutiny will help you get into a winning mindset.

This is what I'm hoping for. My music instructor once told me it helps to have someone on the outside looking in, and that you can't rely on your own opinion of your own actions all the time. Maybe that will apply here, too.

If possible, more screenshots (esp. one of your empire as it stands, and one of your capital's city screen) would help those of us who can't access the saves to assess your progress.

I have more, but this site will only allow me to upload 5 files. I'm guessing that an off-site image storage would work with links, but I don't know of any. I've never used them. I've seen them used before, though. Anyone have a link to one that's quick?

Oh, and btw, I find your brand of game-hating cynicism to be most entertaining.

Heh. Humour is the only thing that is saving what's left of my sanity at the moment. But I owe everyone here an apology for my earlier anger. I hope I can be forgiven. To be angry is to be human. Who said that... Padme?

 

[njorls]

photobucket.com is what I use.

I haven't checked the save but it seems like a reasonably good start. I'd do a granary in a new city before a barracks, it'll make the city grow faster and more powerful, quicker.

 

[vicawoo]

difficulty?

 

[Nevordan]

Ah, yes. Photobucket. I'll go see what I can do with that. And the difficulty is.....
....
*drumroll*
...
Noble. *ducks*

Okay, here is my 2nd city...



And my 3rd city...



An overview of the bottom half of the continent (where I am)...



And an overview of the top half (before my scouts died)...



The second source of iron (only one I can see that's close) and likely the only viable spot for a city...

 

[madscientist]

I will comment just on the starting location based on the screenshot, and based on what you said I am assuming you have pigs in the BFC. You have a ton of hils, grasslands, fresh water, and corn. You play the game 2 ways

1) conservative (good for a newer player) means going after pottery early and start building cottages all along your using the lone corn for food and mix in Mined hills as needed for production.
2) More agressive. This is a dynamite spot for a farm/production wonderspamming capital. Mine the hills, farm everything else. Chop out the early wonders (stonehenge/oracle) and settle ALL GPs in the capital. Also means getting at least one other city build fairly quickly which would produce your units and comemrce.

Build order: Build a warrior first, to allow the city ro grow to pop2 at least, then get a worker.
Tech order: Mining/BW/Agri. allows you to chop a settler quicker for the second city. Go wheel/AH/Pottery next.

 

[manu-fan]

Just commenting on a few things based on the screenshot.

The shot of the capital just begs....Production!!!

A food source, lots of hills, on a river (for farms). This will be a production powerhouse. Build the cottages elsewhere (hopefully some other city on a river). This could be a military production center churning unit after unit.

Why did you build archers so early. You don't really need them until you start taking over other Civs. I also wouldn't have built ganaries so early. Barracks and military for me

Essential to get Horses or Copper asap to deal with the barb threat.

You should have posted a shot at the end, showing the extent of your 'empire'.

I'll see if I can remember to upload the save tonight and have a look.

Noble is a great difficulty to play at. Why would you be ashamed of that?

Cheers.

 

[colony]

I had a look at the save, and had a few thoughts, the main things I noticed were:

• It looks like you have plenty of room to expand in, and no need to go to war for a while yet, so once you have barbs under control you can focus a bit more on building and peacefully expanding.
• You also have marble, so going for an early wonder might be possible. Oracle for Code of Laws (to help your expansion into the empty land) would give you a nice boost
• In terms of techs, once you've got Masonry and any techs you might need for wonders, I'd aim for Writing, Currency and CoL, so you can expand without your research rate going down the drain.
• You've settled 2 cities in the middle of the jungle. This isn't bad, they're in good positions, but you will need more Workers to get them going quickly. I normally aim for about 1.5 per city this early on, and more if I'm surrounded by jungle, try to avoid working unimproved tiles as much as possible.
• The gems will give your research a big boost once you get them mined
• You're capital should have really good production, and will be able to run a few specialists too once it's grown a bit, I'd cottage the other cities, and farm most of the grasslands in the capital.
• I wouldn't worry too much about getting Iron right yet, you've got Copper, and it's close enough that you don't have to worry about an AI putting a city on it. Also you probably won't need Swordsmen for a while.

Personally I'd research Medi, Priesthood and Writing after Masonry was finished, while building more Workers, a few Archers and some Settlers (enough not to cripple your economy, not sure how many that is on Noble, 6 cities pre CoL shold be ok), and try to get CoL free from the Oracle (3 and a bit chops with marble IIRC). And from there expand into all that empty space, or go and whack Gandhi if you can't control your Viking urgs.

 

[pigswill]

Good to build the cities to the north, stakes out the south of the continent as your territory. Building roads to jungle cities will let them share existing health resources which should help them a bit.

You've got some decent sites for a couple of cities down south. Five cities seems like a decent starting point.

Don't know if you're familiar with fog-busting but now is a good time to practice. Put a few units on the top of hills down south to reduce the shaded (fog-of-war) tiles. This will greatly reduce the number of barbs you face in the game.

 

[oyzar]

first reaction, whyever would you settle in the middle of the jungle when you dont have workers to clear it?

 

[manu-fan]

The second source of iron (only one I can see that's close) and likely the only viable spot for a city...

What the heck? I've just seen your pics.

What about the one east of the capital at the end of the river. Settle on top of it!!!!

It would make a good finance city also with all those grassland river tiles to cottage.

BTW: You were a bit unlucky with the Horse placements. None nearby at all

Cheers.

 

[Game-God]

I would say allow your cities grow a bit first thing with some warriors(2) then (settler) to go for another city that takes the two elephants and iron to the north. Just place that city in between the three so they are all in the BFC. Then develop that city as fast as possible with cuture producing builds/wonders. You have to enlarge it to the point of taking Ghandis' city closest to yours from him by culture.

2nd put more cities down on the coast line to the south. First to the Iron at bottom left place the city 2 spaces to the left (next to the mountain) so that you can use both the coastal resources for (3)gold and (1)food each squarefor growth and commerce later, and to keep the BFC covering up that Iron. Next city would be right on top of the copper on the bottom right of the continent so you can get the other coppers in that cities BFC also (if I am seeing this correctly) you'll need a single boat to carry a worker to the little isl. to mine that resource. Then once these cities are placed your going to need to build them up as fast as possible also just like the one closer to Ghandi, only this time so that you can build Axemen/Longbowman for city defensives from barbs. (don't worry about the space between the northern cities you all ready have these two as you can grow in here later).

3rd take 3-4 workers from each of these cities in one stack with 1 LBmen and 2 Axmen to make roads to the northen cities and each other. They will make roads 4 times faster and get ther in no time at all.

This city developing will tax your science rate a bit for now, but it's well worth it, not only for now but for the future when you can build a Corporation called Mining Inc. You can also get Sid Sushi later but you can trade for the Seafood and such from other players that you become friendly with.

EDIT: Ooops! Didn't notice that your only using Warlords, but the Elephants will make taking Ghandi out easier or going for Washington instead might be doable. I have played out to 1300AD myself just for giggles. Your' in for a challenge...

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Well, if this is the only way for me to learn how to play this hellish game, then I suppose I have no choice. I was quite thorough, taking the time each turn to write down exactly what I did.

Concentrate more on why you did than what you did. It will improve your game more quickly, while reducing the amount of noise.


Also, immediately after founding your first city, try to make a prediction of what it will look like in 1000 BC and 1000AD.

 

[Jet]

I would have:

• Settled on the lake first. A city like Uppsala is better put off until you're in a better position to develop it. It's good for early cities to be immediately productive because of the compounding effect. Getting a military resource early is good, but not as much when you have Archery from a hut on Noble, don't have a close neighbor to rush, and have enough space that you're likely to find Iron somewhere. Blocking your neighbors is also good, but you weren't doing that.
• BW -> Mysticism -> IW. You didn't need roads yet. Mysticism to get the Gems and Ivory by the lake sooner. IW for the Gems (most of all), and for other jungle and to find Iron sooner.
• Depending on the timing, I might have made the third settler finish with IW. If I had seen the Iron in time, I would have settled it before Uppsala, mainly because it would be productive sooner. I think 1 SW of the Iron is slightly better than on the Iron, since it gets the resource tile before the border pop, leaves the Fish for another city, and has more useful overlap - I'd give it Nidaros's four flat grass river tiles and leave Nidaros to work mines.
• Put Uppsala 1 SW of your spot. The extra food is worth having the Monument take forever. I wouldn't have cared about the Marble since it's not on a river, the city doesn't have enough food to work it, and I wouldn't have wanted any classical era wonders. I'd have had the Marble in time for the Great Library.

Right now I think you want a total of 4-6 units (2-3 north, 2-3 south) and 3-4 workers, then settle 1SW of the Iron, then build an Axeman to finish exploring. Cottages everywhere except Nidaros.

• With the Marble you might as well research Masonry/Poly/Priesthood, and build the Oracle, because you can. Good enough chance to be worth trying. Code of Laws if you feel lucky (then use the prophet on a shrine), otherwise just Monarchy or Metal Casting (then use the prophet to lightbulb Theology).
• Fifth city Corn/Iron/Spice.
• Besides maybe Monotheism (if you're going to lightbulb Theology), research Writing and maybe Sailing, then Literature. You'll probably find another AI for tech trading, but even if you don't it's still an OK move. You have Marble, and the Great Library would give you GPPs without food (which you don't have much of), and you have a great city for Heroic Epic. I'd put the Great Library in Nidaros, just to get it done. I'd use the first Scientist on an Academy in Haithabu and develop it for Oxford by working maximum cottages. You can still put Oxford elsewhere if you find a better spot.
• Keep expanding and working tons of cottages. As soon as you get the Gems, work them and keep working them. You don't have a lot of production, so get a level 4 unit and build Heroic Epic, anticipate your first war and build units ahead of time, and get more production. Prefer cottages to mines in Haithabu if possible, but SSE of the Pigs and S of the Oasis look like pretty good spots for production cities (without cottages). In general don't worry about a lot of buildings - work cottages and build units. Financial leaders are good at that, especially Ragnar with cheap Barracks.

 

[manu-fan]

So,

I loaded it and played from the start.

I went Warrior first, who explored and then became 2nd city defender. I then went worker (when size 2), barracks (until size 3) and then settler. Then I made a worker before the next warrior and settler.

I settled the 2nd city where you have your 3rd. A good spot. Got my workers hooking it up by road. I reasearched Mining/BW/Wheel/IronWorking or something. Anyway. I had Iron Working before deciding on the next city. So, I settled it on the Iron at the mouth of the river to the east of the capital. This city will claim the fish also, build triremes for exploration etc.

I've mined lots of hills in the capital and it is a production powerhouse. Could be used to build wonders next or crank out military. Note. I don't have Pottery yet. I'm running 80% research and generating 16 a turn. Writing is next and get a Library in the cap.

Overall, this map is not a kind one for Warmongering Ragnar. The enemies are too far north to make a rush practical. So, a more patient buildup will be necessary.

For your game, I think you need to settle the Iron at the mouth of the river. Churn out a few Axes for defense from Barbs, and think about where to place the 5th city. Spices to the left of the capital seem like a good target for that city.

You could then go for the Oracle (after researching the necessary techs) in the Capital. I would then take Metal Casting, and eventually get the Colossus in the Iron City. Eventually, I can see lots of Coastal citys in your future after wiping out Washington and Ghandi BTW: Get more workers. Once you have 4 cities, 5 or 6 workers will be best.

That's about it. Apart from the City #2 placement, I think you're doing a pretty good job so far.

Cheers.

 

[Nevordan]

I'm feeling incredibly ill today and have to refrain from playing until I get better. It feels like the flu. Anyway, I appreciate the advice, all of it. Some advice about warfare in Warlords would be helpful, though. Before this game I tried my old ways (6 swordsmen, 2 axemen, 2 spearmen) which used to work wonders on those 2-archer defended weakling cities. Now it seems the AI likes to build walls and settle on hills, and it's much tougher not only to lower defenses to 0%, but to cause enough collataral damage to take the city. I used to sacrifice one or two catapults and send in the swordsmen to wipe everyone out. Not I have to sacrifice ALL of the catapults, and still have a tough time succeeding. What the hell? Not really good for my mental state at the moment, I'm all dazed and coming in and out like a bad radio station, so forgive me. I'll try to get back to this ASAP.

I have a few questions though. Is my game bugged? Qin Shi Huang and Kublai Khan have switched bodies since I installed Warlords, and in another game Ghandi's had about 5 hills in a city, and they were all producing 6 hammers. An anvil and a hammer. 6 production. This was BC, so... what the hell?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Qin and Kublai did switch in Warlords, yes. I think it is because old Kublai was standing in front of the Great Wall of China but I could be wrong about that.

6 hammers on a hill sounds like mined iron on a plains hill... if you can't see iron due to not having iron working you can't see the iron resource, but you can see the production. You can use this to spot iron mines on grassland too so you know which roads to pillage to cut off the enemy iron sometimes.

Collateral damage catapults followed up by city raider cats normally softens up defenders enough after you knock cultural defence down to 0%.

Were you bombarding spain (and who can blame you, Izzy is a pain)? Their citadels reduce damage from siege bombardment by 50%.

 

[Nevordan]

Qin and Kublai did switch in Warlords, yes. I think it is because old Kublai was standing in front of the Great Wall of China but I could be wrong about that.

Too funny. I thought the game screwed up.

6 hammers on a hill sounds like mined iron on a plains hill... if you can't see iron due to not having iron working you can't see the iron resource, but you can see the production. You can use this to spot iron mines on grassland too so you know which roads to pillage to cut off the enemy iron sometimes.

No, I had Iron Working. And it was just a plains hill. If it happens again I will take a screenshot, but it could have just been a freak incident. He had about 6 mined hills and they were ALL one anvil/one hammer. I thought it might be a bug or a new wonder or some damned thing.

Collateral damage catapults followed up by city raider cats normally softens up defenders enough after you knock cultural defence down to 0%.

8 catapults was my usual number. 4 with city raider I, 4 with bombardment. I used to use the 4 bombardment cats to lower defenses to 0% and the city raiders to soften up defenders, but now it seems I need to sacrifice all cats to get anywhere.

Were you bombarding spain (and who can blame you, Izzy is a pain)? Their citadels reduce damage from siege bombardment by 50%.

Nah, it was Qin Shi Huang. Soon after I attacked him, MehMed II attacked me. All it took was "-1 You declared war on our friend!" They are so much easier to piss off in Warlords, it seems.

 

[Jet]

Attack %s are all mechanical, you just need more units, but strategically, you can prioritize military techs, whip/chop units, and attack earlier. The Qin/Kublai change was intentional. 6 is impossible without a railroad or resource. You can get 5 in a golden age.