A discussion about religion

Aegis

Deity
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
3,970
Moderator Action: This is an argument that I have hived off from this thread.

I don't think so. Christ, according to the Scripture, wanted to be captured at a certain time.

And the justification/rationale behind that is what, exactly?

The whole thing just does not make sense. He must willingly sacrifice Himself to Himself, in order to change a rule that He himself had made? :crazyeye:
 
I had forgotten about the My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" quote.

I'm not really seeing where that contradicts what I have been saying, unless you are attempting to point out that Jesus =\= God, in which case I point to the Holy Trinity.

Jesus is God, but is not the Father. Hence the Father delivered Christ to death through the sins of Caiaphas and Judas (as well as the inhabitants of Jerusalem in general), which Christ did willingly (which is to say that he put the Father's will above His own; cf. Matthew 26:38-40).
 
Jesus is God, but is not the Father. Hence the Father delivered Christ to death through the sins of Caiaphas and Judas (as well as the inhabitants of Jerusalem in general), which Christ did willingly (which is to say that he put the Father's will above His own; cf. Matthew 26:38-40).

They are still considered One, part of the collective.
 
Didn't Jesus also say that the 12 disciples would be the judges of the 12 tribes of Israel? How are 11 disciples going to judge 12 tribes if Judas is condemned? Whether this is all part of Christ's plan or not is a theological question that can't be answered historically.

Read the Book of Acts. There's Apostolic Succession by which witnesses of Christ can fill the seats opened by the dead.

They are still considered One, part of the collective.

Yes, so? They have the same substance but are different persons.
 
@Aegis - let's not go too far the other way. I don't know where you get the reference that Jesus was hiding. He certainly hadn't been trying not to be noticed with his sermons. Which he knew were dangerous because of the power the Sadduces had.

You are right, I was confuzzling a Matthew verse that was out of context, so I retract that statement.
 
Read the Book of Acts. There's Apostolic Succession by which witnesses of Christ can fill the seats opened by the dead.



Yes, so? They have the same substance but are different persons.

So God went about changing His rule in the most roundabout way possible.

Different "Persons" is not a literal term. They're all God, but in different forms.
 
That's monophysitism, and also implying that the purpose of the trinity is to deceive.
 


^
How is that Monophysitism?

Side note: I never really understood why the Holy Spirit was considered separate from the Son, considering it's basically Jesus' ghost up in heaven.
 
So God went about changing His rule in the most roundabout way possible.

What change? Tell me specifically.

Different "Persons" is not a literal term. They're all God, but in different forms.

Actually, it is a literal term. They are different persons in the same sense we are different persons, but they are still each God, and altogether one God. Read about it.

^
How is that Monophysitism?

If only that's what you actually believed, but it's not. You're conflating them all to be the same.

Side note: I never really understood why the Holy Spirit was considered separate from the Son, considering it's basically Jesus' ghost up in heaven.

Absolutely wrong. It really bugs me when people bet their immortal souls on something that they do so little research on.
 
What change? Tell me specifically.

The change of no longer being condemned to Hell if you have sinned. Jesus dying for our sins is what allows a sinner to enter Heaven.

Absolutely wrong. It really bugs me when people bet their immortal souls on something that they do so little research on.

I guess that's what happens when you attend non-denominational churches while growing up.

I do believe in a higher being, however I'm not interested in singing its praises or kissing its ass. It is clear that this entity just wound us up & let us go to see what would happen, not wanting to interfere. If this being is willing to banish me from it's presence simply because I do not have faith in what I believe to be man-made tripe intended to indoctrinate more followers, then so be it.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus

The bolded portion just about sums it up for me.
 
The change of no longer being condemned to Hell if you have sinned. Jesus dying for our sins is what allows a sinner to enter Heaven.

The spiritual effects of Jesus' death are timeless. We only perceive it as a change since Jesus, incarnated as a human being, died at a time and place. Furthermore, this was God's plan from eternity.

So arguing it thus as if God "changed his mind" so to speak is erroneous.

I do believe in a higher being, however I'm not interested in singing its praises or kissing its ass.

Happiness can only be achieved by fulfilling our nature, and our nature is to know and love God. I would recommend thinking about this more.

It is clear that this entity just wound us up & let us go to see what would happen, not wanting to interfere.

Oh? And why do you say that?

If this being is willing to banish me from it's presence simply because I do not have faith in what I believe to be man-made tripe intended to indoctrinate more followers, then so be it.

"So be it?" Quite a statement to make. Do you think the principles that your human mind came up with are going to stand the test of eternity?

Lack of faith is a legitimate reason to not worship God, but awareness of God's existence but refusal to worship due to the arrogance of thinking you know better is not.

The bolded portion just about sums it up for me.

I wrote this Wikipedia article. Take a look at it.

"But esteeming these very punishments to be less than our sins deserve, let us believe that these scourges of the Lord, with which like servants we are chastised, have happened for our amendment, and not for our destruction." - Judith 8:27
 
The spiritual effects of Jesus' death are timeless. We only perceive it as a change since Jesus, incarnated as a human being, died at a time and place.
If every person and every soul existed at every point in time simultaneously, you would have a point. But they do not.

Furthermore, this was God's plan from eternity.
Yeah, sure it was. Just like the dinosaurs were a part of his plan.

Happiness can only be achieved by fulfilling our nature, and our nature is to know and love God. I would recommend thinking about this more.

That is an illogical statement. You do not need to be religious or need to be one with God in order to find happiness.

Our nature is not to know & love God, but to, as He says, “go forth and multiply.” The perpetuation of the species is our nature.

Oh? And why do you say that?

Really?

After 4,000+ years of easily preventable strife, of devout people being mercilessly slaughtered, of disease taking people’s lives by the trillions, of children being raped & murdered and countless of other atrocities that could be easily preventable by an omnipotent being, do you really have to ask why I say that God is not interested in interfering with our world?

Do you praise God for miraculously saving an individual from catastrophe while ignoring the fact that He could have saved all of the victims? Do you thank God for providing the food on your table each night while ignoring that millions of people are starving to death worldwide? Are you narcissistic enough to believe that he pays super-close attention to your life, while billions of others continue to be ignored?

If it’s “all part of God’s plan,” then God is either malevolent or an asshat. Some people might be willing to worship a malevolent asshat out of fear of damnation, but I am not.

"So be it?" Quite a statement to make. Do you think the principles that your human mind came up with are going to stand the test of eternity?

This is the only plane of existence that I know of, so if thanking God for my existence and acknowledging its existence is not enough to avoid being condemned, then oh well. If God is willing to condemn trillions of people to eternal pain & suffering because they were ignorant of his teachings or refused to thank him for their daily beatings, then He is a malevolent entity. Malevolent beings should not be worshipped. Not out of fear, and certainly not out of love.

Lack of faith is a legitimate reason to not worship God, but awareness of God's existence but refusal to worship due to the arrogance of thinking you know better is not.

Why would I choose to worship a being who wishes for harm to befall us?

"But esteeming these very punishments to be less than our sins deserve, let us believe that these scourges of the Lord, with which like servants we are chastised, have happened for our amendment, and not for our destruction." - Judith 8:27

I’ll have to keep that in mind the next time I hear about another infant who dies from disease. I’m sure that such children’s souls were all properly amended by such a loving, merciful god, who desired for their lives to be prematurely snuffed out for the betterment of all mankind and his master plan, before condemning them for all of eternity because they were not baptized. :rolleyes:
 
If every person and every soul existed at every point in time simultaneously, you would have a point. But they do not.

Time is nothing but the human perception of simultaneous movement of matter. Hence your refutation doesn't make sense, because non-material beings like God only interact with time insofar that they interact with material beings.

Yeah, sure it was. Just like the dinosaurs were a part of his plan.

They were, since nothing happens contrary to God's plan.

By the way, the purpose of sarcasm is to point out logical fallacies or factual inaccuracies, of which the existence of dinosaurs imply neither. Apparently, you seem to think that anything human beings cannot understand is simply illogical, which implies there is no intelligent ordering in the universe, and therefore no intelligent orderer. But human beings can in no way determine this from our standing, since no matter how much we learn, we still cannot understand everything in an omniscient way as God does.

That is an illogical statement. You do not need to be religious or need to be one with God in order to find happiness.

False. Anything that exists has a final cause (i.e. purpose). This can be seen both a priori, from the fact that God makes no mistakes nor does anything arbitrarily and hence has given a purpose to anything that exists, and a posteriori, insofar that it is observable that all things that exist have some sort of effect on the universe.

Now, the good of all beings is that which they strive for, which is to say, their final cause. Since God is the creator of all beings, and has endowed them respectively to His own ends, we can say that all beings strive for God. Hence, the happiness (i.e. complete fulfillment in which nothing else is desired) of all beings is to complete their function as given by God.

God, as an omniscient and omnipotent being, makes no mistakes nor does anything arbitrarily. Hence, we can say that the fact that human life exists is according to his plan. We say that God loves us in the sense that He wills our good, which is himself. Hence, happiness is impossible to achieve without God by definition.

Our nature is not to know & love God, but to, as He says, “go forth and multiply.” The perpetuation of the species is our nature.

Reproduction is a secondary precept of the law of nature. This is evident from the facts that (a) there are unhappy people who reproduce, and (b) there are happy people who have not reproduced. I hope you can admit this point, since it's blatantly obvious.

The primary precept is to "do good and avoid evil," and since the good of all beings is God, it is our nature to do God's will.

Really?

After 4,000+ years of easily preventable strife, of devout people being mercilessly slaughtered, of disease taking people’s lives by the trillions, of children being raped & murdered and countless of other atrocities that could be easily preventable by an omnipotent being, do you really have to ask why I say that God is not interested in interfering with our world?
Do you praise God for miraculously saving an individual from catastrophe while ignoring the fact that He could have saved all of the victims? Do you thank God for providing the food on your table each night while ignoring that millions of people are starving to death worldwide? Are you narcissistic enough to believe that he pays super-close attention to your life, while billions of others continue to be ignored?

If it’s “all part of God’s plan,” then God is either malevolent or an asshat. Some people might be willing to worship a malevolent asshat out of fear of damnation, but I am not.

Your error is in assuming that "evil" is to be equated with "death" and/or "suffering" which is not the case. God is all good, I agree; hence everything under his direct control is completely good. What God chooses not to interfere with is our free will. Hence evil is nothing more than free, rational actions that do not have good in the intention. So evil is entirely confined to the choices of rational beings, which are humans and angels.

Nevertheless, everything is according to God's plan, so it has to be explained why God allows evil to happen to others. The answer to this is that since God perpetually wills our good, we have to in some sense admit that whatever misfortunes happen to us is good in a not-necessarily-perceivable manner. I recommend you read "Uniformity with God's Will" by St. Alphonsus de Ligouri, since he proves this thesis with very compelling arguments. It's also only about 30 pages long, so I hope that you try not to excuse yourself with the excuse of apathy or lack of time.

This is the only plane of existence that I know of, so if thanking God for my existence and acknowledging its existence is not enough to avoid being condemned, then oh well.

Again, that's a pretty casual thing to say for your immortal soul.

If God is willing to condemn trillions of people to eternal pain & suffering because they were ignorant of his teachings or refused to thank him for their daily beatings, then He is a malevolent entity. Malevolent beings should not be worshipped. Not out of fear, and certainly not out of love.

If anybody is condemned to eternal suffering, it's because they knew what the good was and chose to actively strive against it because they preferred pleasure or other perceived goods to it.

Furthermore, God cannot be malevolent by definition. If you perceive Him to be as thus, then the problem is in your logic or perception, not God; since, as we should remember, God is infinitely more intelligent than both of us. Hence it is insultingly arrogant to think you know better.

Why would I choose to worship a being who wishes for harm to befall us?

The meaning of the phrase "God is love" is that the definition of "love" is to "will the good of another," and the good of all beings is God; hence in His very essence, God both wants, and is Himself, our happiness. If any harm befalls us, it is for our own good, even if we cannot see the divine reasons behind it.

I’ll have to keep that in mind the next time I hear about another infant who dies from disease. I’m sure that such children’s souls were all properly amended by such a loving, merciful god, who desired for their lives to be prematurely snuffed out for the betterment of all mankind and his master plan, before condemning them for all of eternity because they were not baptized. :rolleyes:

One, unbaptized infants are not condemned to hell. Two, again your problem is that you think death is evil, which it's not. Death is the completion of our earthly nature and is a good thing. What is evil is unjustly ending another's life, but God cannot be unjust, since the definition of justice is "to perpetually give to each what is due," and everything belongs to God.
 
They were, since nothing happens contrary to God's plan.

Circular logic is Circular.

“Everything that happens is all part of the plan, and you can’t point out otherwise because… um… because it’s all part of the plan!”

Any plan that revolves around person a) suffering at the expense of person b) for no reason other than "That's what He wants" is not Just, and is not a plan worth worshiping.

False. Anything that exists has a final cause (i.e. purpose).

The primary function of life is to survive, which serves to facilitate the “final cause” of reproduction.

Reproduction is a secondary precept of the law of nature. This is evident from the facts that (a) there are unhappy people who reproduce, and (b) there are happy people who have not reproduced. I hope you can admit this point, since it's blatantly obvious.

Our nature =\= our happiness.

They are two separate things, which was my point.

a) There are religious people who are not happy.
b) There are non-religious people who are happy.

Stating that you have to be religious & worship God in order to find happiness is a fallacy.

”But Aegis! What non-believers is not *true* happiness.”

Sure, whatever you say. :crazyeye:

Your error is in assuming that "evil" is to be equated with "death" and/or "suffering" which is not the case.

By your definition, not even the Devil is “evil,” but I didn’t even mention evil. I do not believe in Evil. I don’t believe in the Devil, either. The Devil is a medieval boogeyman used to give people a scapegoat for their actions, and Hell a deterrent to get people to behave themselves.

You can keep telling yourself that God letting people suffer is a good thing, but that does not make it true. He allows terrible things to happen, and if He has the power to prevent it, then He is partially at fault for it.

God is all good, I agree; hence everything under his direct control is completely good. God is all good, I agree; hence everything under his direct control is completely good. What God chooses not to interfere with is our free will. Hence evil is nothing more than free, rational actions that do not have good in the intention. So evil is entirely confined to the choices of rational beings, which are humans and angels.

Nevertheless, everything is according to God's plan, so it has to be explained why God allows evil to happen to others. The answer to this is that since God perpetually wills our good, we have to in some sense admit that whatever misfortunes happen to us is good in a not-necessarily-perceivable manner. I recommend you read "Uniformity with God's Will" by St. Alphonsus de Ligouri, since he proves this thesis with very compelling arguments. It's also only about 30 pages long, so I hope that you try not to excuse yourself with the excuse of apathy or lack of time.

It sounds more like ‘Battered Wife Syndrome’ to me. “My husband beats me because I deserve it.” :mischief:

There are plenty of examples of suffering that have absolutely nothing to do with free will. You have no answer for why He allows terrible things to happen other than “it’s all part of his plan,” which is crap.

One, unbaptized infants are not condemned to hell.

Which was only recently changed by the Vatican because people were getting worked up over it. They are still being condemned to Limbo. My point stands: The Christian God punishes those who do not deserve punishment.

”But Aegis! It is not up to you to decide who deserves what; it’s up to God!”

Yeah, yeah. Whatever. Keep telling yourself that innocent souls being condemned for all of eternity is a fair and noble action of a loving God. People who are objective can come to a different conclusion.

The bottom line is that religion in general is a control mechanism used to control the masses. It makes them complacent & placates their trauma. “Don’t worry. It’s all part of the plan. Your suffering is for a greater cause. Your loved ones are in a better place.” A person finding truth in those words can quickly become a productive member of society again.

What is evil is unjustly ending another's life, but God cannot be unjust, since the definition of justice is "to perpetually give to each what is due," and everything belongs to God.

That doesn’t even make sense. Everything belonging to God has zippo to do with what each person is due. Justice is not “perpetually giving each what is due.” Justice is doing what is morally right. Morals are subjective, of course, but morals can springboard from a set of rules, which God conveniently just happens to have. If you violate His rules, you will be punished by Him. What's happening is that people are being punished without violating His rules. That is the inequity and injustice.

In the end, these arguments of yours rely heavily upon circular logic. It’s not enough to be convincing.
 
The bottom line is that religion in general is a control mechanism used to control the masses. It makes them complacent & placates their trauma. “Don’t worry. It’s all part of the plan. Your suffering is for a greater cause. Your loved ones are in a better place.” A person finding truth in those words can quickly become a productive member of society again.

So to get this straight, you think religion is just.. a big conspiracy?
 
Sorry to let you know but religion is organised mysticism, which is itself anthropomorphism of natural phenomena, which is in turn a way for sentients to model behaviour. However, religion is incredibly useful for establishing a set of rituals that can determine if an individual belongs to the in-group or the out-group. After all, how many times has a devout christian talked about a third party, describing them as "good christians", when the discussion was about irrelevant traits like economic reliability? Why would a hungarian peasant apply the golden rule to a group of men riding tough little ponies a mile away? There's a large chance they're raiders who could come in and take everything you own and brutalise you and your family? Your group and their group have nothing in common, and little chance of co-operation. Of course it's no guarantee of safety, a french peasant is not going to be safe from an english peasant in service to the english king, but it's much much easier to massacre heathens than fellow christians/muslims/etc.

In summary, religion has its uses to unite individuals beyond the village/tribe stage.
 
The bottom line is that religion in general is a control mechanism used to control the masses. It makes them complacent & placates their trauma. “Don’t worry. It’s all part of the plan. Your suffering is for a greater cause. Your loved ones are in a better place.” A person finding truth in those words can quickly become a productive member of society again.

I don't wish to get involved in this back-and-forth, but I will say that this sentiment - which one often hears - seems to me at best only a half-truth. Certainly religion has been and continues to be used in this way. But it doesn't follow that this is what religion is really all about. One can easily find counter-examples, where civil authorities try to suppress religion, but "the masses" refuse to allow it to happen. For example, take revolutionary France, which tried to eradicate Christianity and replace it with a sort of Enlightenment deism. The attempt completely failed, because ordinary people weren't interested in Enlightenment deism and wanted to remain devout Catholics. Or the various attempts to suppress religion in the communist countries.

Also, the claim in question can't account for counter-cultural religions which may be successful despite having nothing to do with the civil authorities. The obvious example there is the growth of Christianity in the Roman and Persian empires. In the Roman empire, traditional Roman religion was certainly used to "control the masses" in the way you describe, and closely linked to patriotic values such as pietas. But Christianity rejected those values and was regarded as subversive. So it was completely the opposite of the kind of religion you describe, and yet it spread and grew.

One might as well say that the arts, such as creative writing, film, and theatre, are intrinsically a tool of cynical government manipulation of the masses. Of course they can be. But they can equally be a tool of rebellion and opposition to the ruling classes. And they can equally have nothing to do with politics one way or the other. I'd say religion is similar in that regard.
 
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