A Fantasy Mod Planning/Recruitment

rocklikeafool · Nov 3, 2012

Original Post:

Spoiler :

This planning thread for my own "personal" mod has since turned into a full-blown team effort to work on combining my ideas, mechanics, and civs with PawelS's ideas, mechanics, and civs. By doing so, hopefully we'll present a good total conversion fantasy mod.

Team:

Spoiler :

See post# 28 for more info.

Mod IRC:

Spoiler :

rocklikeafool · Nov 3, 2012

Log:

Spoiler :

darkedone02 · Nov 3, 2012

if only there was a small forum location called "looking for mod teams" to put this topic in.

rocklikeafool · Nov 3, 2012

darkedone02 said:
if only there was a small forum location called "looking for mod teams" to put this topic in.

Well, if a mod wants to move it, they can.

However, this is also a planning thread. So, I didn't feel it really fit there. /shrug

Gedemon · Nov 3, 2012

Moderator Action: Moved to main C&C forum, the subforums are for files only.

feel free to ask to move it back to the modpack section once there is an alpha/beta version available

trystero49 · Nov 3, 2012

You should put up more details about what you plan. I am somewhat interested, but I don't want to commit until it's a little more concrete.

rocklikeafool · Nov 3, 2012

Gedemon said:
Moderator Action: Moved to main C&C forum, the subforums are for files only.

feel free to ask to move it back to the modpack section once there is an alpha/beta version available

Sounds good, thanks. Sorry for the confusion, all.

trystero49 said:
You should put up more details about what you plan. I am somewhat interested, but I don't want to commit until it's a little more concrete.

That's understandable. It'll probably take me about a week to get it all down in this thread. If you can bear with me a bit, I'd appreciate it.

I will let you know, that I estimate (working on this project, on average, 10 hours a week) it will probably take about 6months to get it to a finished product. And even then, I plan on updating it periodically as we encounter bugs or decide to make improvements.

PawelS · Nov 4, 2012

Nice to see a new fantasy mod in development... too bad the few people who possess the secret knowledge about creating unit graphics or converting it from Civ4 still aren't willing to do fantasy units...

Your plans look quite similar to mine, my mod is going to be "classic fantasy" too (but with some Master of Magic and Age of Wonders inspirations in addition to FFH). The main difference will be probably my model of happiness and getting Settlers. A possible idea would be to make my happiness mechanic optional and join forces, but I'm not sure about it, as you may have different ideas than me for things like the tech tree, policies, religion system, and so on...

rocklikeafool · Nov 4, 2012

PawelS said:
Your plans look quite similar to mine, my mod is going to be "classic fantasy" too (but with some Master of Magic and Age of Wonders inspirations in addition to FFH).

I'm drawing a fair amount of influence from FfH, CivII: ToT's Fantasy Game, the Elder Scrolls series, and a bit from Warhammer.

The main difference will be probably my model of happiness and getting Settlers. A possible idea would be to make my happiness mechanic optional and join forces, but I'm not sure about it, as you may have different ideas than me for things like the tech tree, policies, religion system, and so on...

To be honest, I've not got as far as any of this. This is very much my initial plans right now. As you can see, I've a few basic ideas. The main thing so far is getting the civs down. I've yet to flesh it all out.

One idea (that I'm not sure is possible) is to have different planes much like in CivII: ToT's Fantasy & Sci Fi games, and have the ability for the players to move between and build cities on the different planes. Unfortunately, I don't know if that could be done in CivV. So, I may have to content myself with things like the Merfolk having the ability to build cities underwater. Or other civs having the ability to move to and build things on "impassable terrain". (Edit) Maybe certain areas of "impassable terrain" could represent things, like the Merfolk can only build cities in a new terrain type called "Very Deep Ocean" or something. I'm still figuring out how to do the Merfolk though, as you can tell.

Anyway, I admit to being open to joining forces. It's just that I'm not really very far in my planning stages yet. So, I've not gotten as far as core mechanics.

Edit:
Sent you a fairly long PM, PawelS.

Calavente · Nov 5, 2012

seems you got a BIG inspiration theme from Elder scrolls (esp morrowind which is the only one I know deep).
(that's no critic)

for the merfolks .. just thinking out loud..
me-thinks of multiples mechanics:

you could give them some "wonder units", (like the frost-maidens in FFH : 2-3-5 per game)

or auto-spawned units that would be "water-settlers" : you "cultivate" a number of... terrestrial ressources and marine ressources to increase the % chance of "water-settler" spawning : + buidlings ... (like the scions awakened)

or some specific building : gives a free "water-settler" upon completion :
many different ideas:
-the building consumes ressources : 1cow and 1iron or copper .. thus you are limited by your own ressources (even strategic : 2 more heavy infantry... or a new meer-city ?) and number of cities.
-some national wonder-building give some 2-3 free water settler : forbidden palace, terrestrial palace;..Etc (thus it only happens in mid-game)
-some building need the presence of other buildings : (ala cathedrals in cIV: you can build one "meer-expedition-call" per 3 "councils of merfolks" ; building the meer-expedition-call gives you 1 water-settler :
you are limited to one water-city per 2 terrestrial cities (as you can build meer-council in water cities; not counting capital)
-a second stage of buildings exists : once you got the first level, a second level, and third level may be built either : freely ? or needing 2or3 of the level 1 building or needs other ressources to increase need of extended terrestrial empire or the same ressources to increase the pressure on ressources "I NEED ONLY COWS... MY IRONS FOR A COW!!" : gives additional water-settler.

all settlers of mer-folks can build in both terrestrial and water.
however water cities are "settlement" limited to size 1, and growth is enabled through buildings :
fishnet security (against sharks) to open up-till size up to 10;
under-sea cave : need a rift ressource nearby up to 5 pop (doesn't add up with the fishnet security, but enable cheap early growth, ),
watercurrent circulation (need fishnet security + watermagic) : up to 15 pop ;
dome (need water current circulation) :late game, unlimited population.
(or all previous dome gives a +5 to pop cap (or +2 or +3 or a mix depending on balance): capital gives +5, forbidden palace +5, granary +5, port +5...Etc
some of those need a ressource in area cultivated by the city or it consume one or more ressources of the empire (a strategic one?), some are opened by a policy, others are national wonders, other need 2-3 other building in the "terrestrial land" as "supplier", other are only costly... ?

...Etc

rocklikeafool · Nov 5, 2012

Calavente said:
seems you got a BIG inspiration theme from Elder scrolls (esp morrowind which is the only one I know deep).
(that's no critic)

A bit, yeah. It's one of my favorite games. If you're interested (and still got CivIV installed), you could always check out the Warhammer Fantasy mod. I think there's still an active copy on the site. /shrug

for the merfolks .. just thinking out loud..
me-thinks of multiples mechanics:

you could give them some "wonder units", (like the frost-maidens in FFH : 2-3-5 per game)

"Wonder units, as in they can't get new ones if they're killed? I assume you mean the "water-settlers" would max out at 2-5 per game. (I admit I never really got any Frost Maidens in FfH. I'll have to look them up a bit. Unfortunately, my laptop shat itself just after I got all my schoolwork and music transferred to an external hard drive, lol. Be a few days before I can look up stuff in FfH.)

or auto-spawned units that would be "water-settlers" : you "cultivate" a number of... terrestrial ressources and marine ressources to increase the % chance of "water-settler" spawning : + buidlings ... (like the scions awakened)

Hmm...that idea has merit. I'll have to look into the code for the Scions mechanics when I get my laptop up & running again.

or some specific building : gives a free "water-settler" upon completion :
many different ideas:
-the building consumes resources : 1cow and 1iron or copper .. thus you are limited by your own resources (even strategic : 2 more heavy infantry... or a new mer-city ?) and number of cities.
-some national wonder-building give some 2-3 free water settler : forbidden palace, terrestrial palace;..Etc (thus it only happens in mid-game)
-some building need the presence of other buildings : (ala cathedrals in cIV: you can build one "meer-expedition-call" per 3 "councils of merfolks" ; building the meer-expedition-call gives you 1 water-settler :
-you are limited to one water-city per 2 terrestrial cities (as you can build meer-council in water cities; not counting capital)
-a second stage of buildings exists : once you got the first level, a second level, and third level may be built either : freely ? or needing 2or3 of the level 1 building or needs other resources to increase need of extended terrestrial empire or the same resources to increase the pressure on resources "I NEED ONLY COWS... MY IRONS FOR A COW!!" : gives additional water-settler.

I admit to liking the two bolded choices. I may actually combine those two. I still might go with the idea of a Merfolk "homeland", which would be an area only the Merfolk could settle in. (Though, I suppose other civs could enter/conquer the area.)

all settlers of mer-folks can build in both terrestrial and water.
however water cities are "settlement" limited to size 1, and growth is enabled through buildings :
fishnet security (against sharks) to open up-till size up to 10;
under-sea cave : need a rift ressource nearby up to 5 pop (doesn't add up with the fishnet security, but enable cheap early growth, ),
watercurrent circulation (need fishnet security + watermagic) : up to 15 pop ;
dome (need water current circulation) :late game, unlimited population.
(or all previous dome gives a +5 to pop cap (or +2 or +3 or a mix depending on balance): capital gives +5, forbidden palace +5, granary +5, port +5...Etc
some of those need a ressource in area cultivated by the city or it consume one or more ressources of the empire (a strategic one?), some are opened by a policy, others are national wonders, other need 2-3 other building in the "terrestrial land" as "supplier", other are only costly... ?

I feel like this makes the players jump through too many hoops. I also don't know if the AI will get it. It's already going to be something getting the AI understand that it can build cities in the water.

Thank you for the suggestions, btw. I'd just have to see what's most viable codewise, probably.

Calavente · Nov 5, 2012

well.
the "wonder-units" were just that : you can create up to 2,3,5 water-settler (depending on map size ; maybe depending on tech)... and that's all.

My only issue with most of the propositions I made is that if you lose the city (and it is razed) or if the settler dies... well, the wonder-unit(settler) is already built or the enabling building is also already built. So you can't build one to replace the one you lost... which would be bad IMO.

That's why I think the "scion-like" scenario might be one of the best : the number of available water cities might be made dependant on number of cities total, (terrestrial pop, water-pop, some ressources, other criterias...etc). thus in great maps you can easily increase the number of water cities. And you can easily balance this number by tweaking the numbers...

for the last "proposition". I knew it was spicy for the AI.. however it enables to not give "hard limits" to water-settler number and no "complicated" scion-like spawning system?

Another idea would close to this :

all settlers of mer-folks can build in both terrestrial and water.
water cities are "settlement" (at first) limited to size 1

To enable growth you need a building in the city (10prod to build) : "under-sea granary"(name is free to change) is needed to enable growth higher than one.
This under-sea granary needs the presence of other buildings in the empire : (ala cathedrals in cIV) eg : you can build an undersea granary per 3 granary, or per three harbours...Etc

for the capital you then have two choices :
-either Palace enable growth higher than one (but then, if you don't settle the first city on water you lose one opportunity).
-or Palace is a requirement of under-sea granary : one undersea granary per (palace OR 3 granary): 3 cities enable you to have 2 water city: one as per capital, and one due to 3 cities having granary if each city has a granary. thus you can chose to have your capitol or your second city as water-city.

This would have the advantages of ;
-not limiting the number of settlers able to go to deep sea.
-enable new water cities in the case you lose a water city or a settler.
-no complicated mechanics
-if the city is taken by outsiders.. it cannot grow anymore if the UB is destroyed upon capture... but once you retake it, it is easily replaced.

On an unrelated topic.. you could "force" merfolks settler that settle on land to only be able to settle on coast or "irrigated land" : adjacent to river or lakes.

well.... this being that... good luck. and thanks for your hard work.

rocklikeafool · Nov 5, 2012

Calavente said:
Another idea would close to this:

all settlers of mer-folks can build in both terrestrial and water.
water cities are "settlement" (at first) limited to size 1

To enable growth you need a building in the city (10prod to build) : "under-sea granary"(name is free to change) is needed to enable growth higher than one.
This under-sea granary needs the presence of other buildings in the empire : (a la cathedrals in cIV) eg : you can build an undersea granary per 3 granary, or per three harbours...Etc

for the capital you then have two choices :
-either Palace enable growth higher than one (but then, if you don't settle the first city on water you lose one opportunity).
-or Palace is a requirement of under-sea granary : one undersea granary per (palace OR 3 granary): 3 cities enable you to have 2 water city: one as per capital, and one due to 3 cities having granary if each city has a granary. thus you can chose to have your capitol or your second city as water-city.

This would have the advantages of ;
-not limiting the number of settlers able to go to deep sea.
-enable new water cities in the case you lose a water city or a settler.
-no complicated mechanics
-if the city is taken by outsiders.. it cannot grow anymore if the UB is destroyed upon capture... but once you retake it, it is easily replaced.

I think I like this idea the best. The general idea would be that Merfolk would spawn in the "deep ocean", which would then "create" the Merfolk "homeland" as being underwater. (Yes, I'm sure that a very limited area of "Deep Ocean" could be created as their "homeland", but really I like this idea better.) Thus, the Merfolk player would either be able to move to land (which would have the advantage of having certain valuable resources) or stay in the sea (which would make it very hard for other civs to attack you).
I'd probably design the Merfolk so that the player would only have to expand to land, if they wanted to persue certain victory types. In other words, if you're a builder-type of player, then there's no real reason to pursue any resources on land.

On an unrelated topic.. you could "force" merfolks settler that settle on land to only be able to settle on coast or "irrigated land" : adjacent to river or lakes.

Yeah, I'm probably going to create a unique promotion for Merfolk settlers that does the following:
- Can walk on water or on land.
- Can only build cities next on coasts or next to rivers or lakes.

Plus, all other Merfolk units would have a promotion that gives the ability to walk on water or on land. As such, they would probably be blocked from building any ships. (Who needs ships when you can just stove in the enemies' ships with your tridents?)

rocklikeafool · Nov 5, 2012

Update:
trystero49 has decided to join in this endeavor! Whoohoo! Still looking for an artist.

Also, my PC should be fixed as of tonight. My wonderful girlfriend was nice enough to offer to run up a hard drive from her PC, which she no longer uses. There's a small possibility it's the wrong type of hard drive. If that's the case, it'll be fixed tomorrow night.

FramedArchitect · Nov 6, 2012

No idea how you would link different maps, but I am working on a method for Faerun that will teleport units from discreet tile of main map ("dungeon entrance") to otherwise inaccessible section of map ("Underdark"). There is method in 1066 scenario which shows how this might be done.

It will be interesting to see how you solve the variable city found problem, which I ran up against in a recent mod I made. It may be as simple as having found option toggle based on terrain or feature (maybe atoll?), but I am complete novice on ui modding. Whoward will know answer to this. ~FA

rocklikeafool · Nov 6, 2012

FramedArchitect said:
No idea how you would link different maps, but I am working on a method for Faerun that will teleport units from discreet tile of main map ("dungeon entrance") to otherwise inaccessible section of map ("Underdark"). There is method in 1066 scenario which shows how this might be done.

Huh, would you mind if telling me in which file that method is contained? That might be useful much later on.
As in, when we have a stable version of the mod. And we may not even use it. ::shrug:: It's just the programmer in me is very curious.

It will be interesting to see how you solve the variable city found problem, which I ran up against in a recent mod I made. It may be as simple as having found option toggle based on terrain or feature (maybe atoll?), but I am complete novice on ui modding. Whoward will know answer to this. ~FA

Well, I think I've a solution to it, thanks to Calavente's idea. Or at least, a pseudo-code solution.

JDexter · Nov 6, 2012

Just a heads up: this is exactly what I've been waiting for after having played CiV for a bit after release. A complete fantasy mod - I also enjoyed the WH mod and obviously FfH tremendously!

Pazyryk · Nov 6, 2012

I wish you all the luck with this.

Geez... If only we had a fantasy fan out there that would take on unit conversion. Then we would finally (after >2 years) have some fantasy mods...

magzhi · Nov 6, 2012

Starting from the next week, I am gonna have more free time, so I can help here. I am ok at graphics (but bad at drawing, so icons and UI are the only thing I can do for graphics) and I have a basic knowledge of C++, which can be helpful here ^^

About merfolks:
I think that than some average strength barbarian should appear more frequently in the seas, because otherwise no one would be able to destroy their underwater country until discovery of some heavy vessels.

You can also take some ideas from battle for wesnoth. It is a free hex based, turn based, fantasy strategy game. (A lot of similarities)

rocklikeafool · Nov 6, 2012

magzhi said:
Starting from the next week, I am gonna have more free time, so I can help here. I am ok at graphics (but bad at drawing, so icons and UI are the only thing I can do for graphics) and I have a basic knowledge of C++, which can be helpful here ^^

AWESOME! Exactly what we needed! [party]

About merfolks:
I think that than some average strength barbarian should appear more frequently in the seas, because otherwise no one would be able to destroy their underwater country until discovery of some heavy vessels.

There will definitely be some sort of sea monsters. Most will be sort of "mid-level". The key will be balancing it enough so that the sea monsters don't overwhelm the AI.
But, in a way, the idea is that no one can conquer the Merfolk's underwater cities, without either heavy vessels or very powerful mages or both. However, I agree that there should definitely be a fairly steady stream of sea monsters to keep them from getting too OP.

You can also take some ideas from battle for wesnoth. It is a free hex based, turn based, fantasy strategy game. (A lot of similarities)

I'll have to look that up...for, uh, research purposes. :lol:

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