BuchiTaton

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I hope I'm not being annoying by asking so many questions but do you think that Cempoala makes for a good Scientific CS?
No problem.
Personaly I see Cempoala more as a trade city (as most of the Totonac region) with some diplomacy related bonus (because their key role as the first ally of Hernán Cortés), anyway their astronomical structures still can justify the science thematic considering Maya, Zapotec and Olmec are already represented on regular game.

Talking about diplomacy Tlaxcala is another great option considering it was a Republic.
 

Queen Theophania

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No problem.
Personaly I see Cempoala more as a trade city (as most of the Totonac region) with some diplomacy related bonus (because their key role as the first ally of Hernán Cortés), anyway their astronomical structures still can justify the science thematic considering Maya, Zapotec and Olmec are already represented on regular game.

Talking about diplomacy Tlaxcala is another great option considering it was a Republic.

Thanks for the help! Like I said I'm not very knowledgeable about Mesoamerica so I'm really grateful for the recomendations you're giving me!

(And yeah I agree the Olmecs would probably have a Sceintific CS if it was up to me too :/)
 

Zaarin

Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari
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Do you think that maybe Fort Ancient could be replaced by something like Poverty Point? It would represent the area in the central Southeast and keep the same suzerain bonus (though by making it kind of anachronistic)

EDIT: I was also thinking of maybe adding Poverty Point when initially brainstorming the CS concepts, so maybe it could have the effigy mounds improvement and it would provide science instead? (I'm not particularly enthusiastic about the idea but it's still feasible)
Possibly, though I might favor the Natchez instead. The Natchez were the only moundbuilding-society to survive into historical times, are probably the best representative of the Plaquemine culture, and were the builders of the second largest Mississippian structure, Emerald Mound.
 

BuchiTaton

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Another great option for a Trade city state is Ligüiqui part of the Manteño-Huancavilca culture know by their extensive maritime trade network that linked the Ecuador to Western Mexico.

I see you also have Chan Chan as industrial, certainly fit, other similar option is Sipan. Either of those cities from the Chimu and Mochica cultures can also work as Militaristic.
 

Queen Theophania

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So I've finished something important and now have free time to actually make this mod, I've also organized all the city states and would you like to know what you guys think about them!

Cultural:
  • Finca 6
  • Os Camutins
  • Tuktoyaktuk
  • Tségháhoodzání
  • Werewocomoco
  • Sitka
Industrial:
  • Teyuna
  • Chan Chan
  • Moxos
  • Teotihuacán
  • Casas Grandes
  • Natchez
Militaristic:
  • Guapondelig
  • Masset
  • São Luiz Gonzaga
  • Onondaga
  • Tzintzuntzán
  • Kaposia
Religious:
  • Chaco Canyon
  • Guachimontones
  • Tiwanaku
  • Poverty Point
  • Prohpetstown
  • San Agustín
Scientific:
  • Caral
  • Cempoala
  • Kuhukugu
  • Tuskegee
  • Mound Key
  • Mesa Verde
Trade:
  • El Tajín
  • Yaanga
  • Yuquot
  • Tulor
  • Michilimackinac
  • Like-A-Fishhook
I feel that this selection of CS is quite well rounded though there might still be improvements that could be made.

For example, San Agustín is an archaeological site in Colombia with the highest amount of monolithic structures in South America, it's a very good contender for a Religious CS but the Andes are already well represented in that area (with Nazca in the base game and Tiwanaku in this mod concept) but I still think South America needs a bit more to act as a counterweight to all that has been added to North America recently.

There's also a bit of an issue with so many of the Religious CS giving unique improvements (kinda worsened by the fact San Augustín could feasibly get one too) which I'll get into more a bit later.

I'd also like to ask @Zaarin and @BuchiTaton a few more questions if it doesn't bother them (I really hope it doesn't ._.)

First I'd like to ask Zaarin a few things.

1. I'm personally quite happy with Onondaga being included as a Militaristic CS but I'm not too sure if Werewocomoco fits all too well as a cultural one, do you think there might be a better option for a Cultural CS in the general Northwestern Woodland region? (or maybe the Southwest too more boradly)

2. Do you feel that Michilimackinac is the best Trade CS for the Northeastern Woodlands? I think that Chilliciohe also fits very well but Prophetstown already kind of represents the Shawnee and I'd rather try to not have several CS that belong to the same ethnic group.

3. I've added Mesa Verde as @Alexander's Hetaroi suggested and feel like a Cliff Dwelling unique improvement might fit better as its bonus, in that case what do you think would work as Chaco Canyon's bonus? (I'm also thinking that Mesa Verde giving its suzerain the ability to build farms on desert tiles could also work well but I'm still curious about what you think)

And now I'd like to ask BuchiTaton a couple of things

1. I haven't been able to find much information on Kaha Kamasa but from what I found I think it would make for an interesting inclusion, do you know where could I find some reliable information on it?

2. You put Guachimontones as a Cultural CS in one of your replies to this thread, do you think it fits better as Cultural instead of Religious? and if it does what city in Mesoamerica do you think would work well as a Religious CS?

3. As I said before Cempoala isn't too awful exciting as a Scientifc CS, is there another city in the general region that you'd rather choose as a Scientific CS?

I'd really like to thank everyone that participated here and helped make my mod as good as possible :D! I really appreciate you putting your time into explaining this stuff to me and I just want to say that I really appreciate it.
 
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3. I've added Mesa Verde as @Alexander's Hetaroi suggested and feel like a Cliff Dwelling unique improvement might fit better as its bonus, in that case what do you think would work as Chaco Canyon's bonus? (I'm also thinking that Mesa Verde giving its suzerain the ability to build farms on desert tiles could also work well but I'm still curious about what you think)
Farms on desert tiles could work, as that was an ability I would consider giving them. At the same time, you could also give the Cliff Dwelling improvement the ability to grant food to adjacent desert tiles.

Considering they both are Pueblo settlements, the Cliff Dwelling improvement or desert farming could work for either of them, it's up to you which one you think works best.
 

Xandinho

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I'd personally prefer Kuhikugu to be a trade city-state with bonuses for domestic trade routes and agriculture, to reflect the multiple villages interconnected by a network of roads that facilitated trade between them and the cassava plantations.
 

Zaarin

Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari
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1. I'm personally quite happy with Onondaga being included as a Militaristic CS but I'm not too sure if Werewocomoco fits all too well as a cultural one, do you think there might be a better option for a Cultural CS in the general Northwestern Woodland region? (or maybe the Southwest too more boradly)
I think Werewocomoco is a good fit for Culture given the charisma of its leader and the powerful paramountcy he managed to build in a single lifetime (since we lack specifically Diplomatic city-states), but the PNW is always a good candidate for Cultural city-states. However, you already have Sitka, and the Northern PNW--Haida, Tlingit, and Tsimshian--are generally regarded as the pinnacle of PNW culture. While having two PNW Cultural city-states certainly makes sense, I don't think it hurts to spread around the representation.

2. Do you feel that Michilimackinac is the best Trade CS for the Northeastern Woodlands? I think that Chilliciohe also fits very well but Prophetstown already kind of represents the Shawnee and I'd rather try to not have several CS that belong to the same ethnic group.
It's a very good selection, being a hub for multiple groups. The Pawnee were, of course, the premier traders of the region (regions--really the whole area east of the Mississippi), making Chillicothe appealing, but you're right that the Shawnee are already represented by Prophetstown, which is a very iconic moment of Shawnee history.

3. I've added Mesa Verde as @Alexander's Hetaroi suggested and feel like a Cliff Dwelling unique improvement might fit better as its bonus, in that case what do you think would work as Chaco Canyon's bonus? (I'm also thinking that Mesa Verde giving its suzerain the ability to build farms on desert tiles could also work well but I'm still curious about what you think)
I agree with @Alexander's Hetaroi that Chaco Canyon and Mesa Verde are probably pretty much interchangeable in terms of abilities.
 

Queen Theophania

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I'd personally prefer Kuhikugu to be a trade city-state with bonuses for domestic trade routes and agriculture, to reflect the multiple villages interconnected by a network of roads that facilitated trade between them and the cassava plantations.

I agree that Kuhikugu makes a lot of sense as a Trade CS, the reason I picked it as Scientific instead is because it's just really hard to find good candidates to be Scientific CS and to highlight the engineering needed to make the monuments found there and create the terra preta they used for agriculture, it's not really ideal but there really aren't many other options for the roles Kuhikugu is playing here. On another note I really like your concept of giving it some sort of bonus for domestic trade routes and agriculture and might actually integrate that into my mod :>
 

BuchiTaton

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1. I haven't been able to find much information on Kaha Kamasa but from what I found I think it would make for an interesting inclusion, do you know where could I find some reliable information on it?
I haven't done a deep search about the "Ciudad Blanca" but it seems that most information is exploratory and diffusion works from the National Geographic and honduran public institutions, would like to find proper academic publications.

2. You put Guachimontones as a Cultural CS in one of your replies to this thread, do you think it fits better as Cultural instead of Religious? and if it does what city in Mesoamerica do you think would work well as a Religious CS?
For me Guachimontones is more a Cultural CS, still can justify the religious focus on the "Tumbas de Tiro", "Palo de Volador" and the cult to Ehécatl.

3. As I said before Cempoala isn't too awful exciting as a Scientifc CS, is there another city in the general region that you'd rather choose as a Scientific CS?
With El Tajin as trade CS Cempoala will be a secondary Totonac city, so thinking about a better alternative the best option would be Chalchihuites (Altavista) in Zacatecas, it is a very interesting site on the classical northen frontier of Mesoamerica.
 

Queen Theophania

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I haven't done a deep search about the "Ciudad Blanca" but it seems that most information is exploratory and diffusion works from the National Geographic and honduran public institutions, would like to find proper academic publications.


For me Guachimontones is more a Cultural CS, still can justify the religious focus on the "Tumbas de Tiro", "Palo de Volador" and the cult to Ehécatl.


With El Tajin as trade CS Cempoala will be a secondary Totonac city, so thinking about a better alternative the best option would be Chalchihuites (Altavista) in Zacatecas, it is a very interesting site on the classical northen frontier of Mesoamerica.

Thanks for the help! (and also thanks to Zaarin who I just realized I forgot to thank before :shifty: (and thanks to everyone else too))
 

Queen Theophania

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Messages
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Hey @Zaarin I have a lil question, I'm going to replace Like-a-fishhook in my mod and I'm thinking its replacement will be Tuckabatchee, the problem is that I haven't found all too much info about it online and don't know if it fits that well as a Trade CS, could you explain to me why you suggested it to be one?

P.S. I'm really sorry to bother you so much, this should be the last time here
 

Zaarin

Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari
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Babylon 5
Hey @Zaarin I have a lil question, I'm going to replace Like-a-fishhook in my mod and I'm thinking its replacement will be Tuckabatchee, the problem is that I haven't found all too much info about it online and don't know if it fits that well as a Trade CS, could you explain to me why you suggested it to be one?

P.S. I'm really sorry to bother you so much, this should be the last time here
Tuckabatchee was one of the primary towns of the Creek (several primary chiefs were born there, and it was the starting location for the Green Corn Festival). You could probably make a good argument for it as a Trade, Industry, or Militaristic city-state. I suggested Trade because it was a White Stick town, and the White Sticks were instrumental in the Native/Euro-American trade. In particular they tended to be middle men in the fur trade from tribes further west and the settlers in the Southeast. They also vigorously adopted European-style agriculture.

I might stick with Like-a-fishhook myself just because it's the only Plains and non-Sioux Siouan representation on your list, whereas the Muskogeans are represented by Tuskegee (Creek specifically) as well as Poverty Point and Cahokia in all likelihood.

P.S. I'm really sorry to bother you so much, this should be the last time here
Not a bother at all. :D
 

Queen Theophania

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Joined
Dec 15, 2021
Messages
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Tuckabatchee was one of the primary towns of the Creek (several primary chiefs were born there, and it was the starting location for the Green Corn Festival). You could probably make a good argument for it as a Trade, Industry, or Militaristic city-state. I suggested Trade because it was a White Stick town, and the White Sticks were instrumental in the Native/Euro-American trade. In particular they tended to be middle men in the fur trade from tribes further west and the settlers in the Southeast. They also vigorously adopted European-style agriculture.

I might stick with Like-a-fishhook myself just because it's the only Plains and non-Sioux Siouan representation on your list, whereas the Muskogeans are represented by Tuskegee (Creek specifically) as well as Poverty Point and Cahokia in all likelihood.


Not a bother at all. :D

Thank you so much for the help!
 

Birch617

Warlord
Joined
Jun 17, 2020
Messages
225
I would add Spiro as Religious City State and i kinda related, the Spiro Great Mortuary could be a cool Wonder for North America.


This is a really good video about the site, its use and history
 
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