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A few Easy Diplo Fixes

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Yzman, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Messages:
    2,692
    Location:
    Illinois, USA
    Here are the things in diplo I feel should be fixed. Its a short list and much of it is related, but it would make the game more enjoyable ( I enjoy this game quite a bit already).

    1. Warmonger Hate

    I have no problem with hating warmongers, the problem is how it is decided. It appears that the AI decides I am a warmonger based on how many cities I take and not how many wars I declare. I should not be a warmonger if I am counterattacking after being declared on. Have the AI get angry at real warmongers, not successful war.

    2. Have AI and player follow same rules

    Maybe I am wrong, but it seems I get the warmonger hate a lot faster than Civs that are actively declaring war on everyone. Then of course this leads to them ALL declaring war on me because I am a warmonger apparently. This may be because the AI very rarely takes cities, I can't tell for sure. This may be fixed with the first fix.

    3. Have liberated Civs get huge diplo boost.

    If I liberate a civ, they will always automatically vote for me. However, they often seem to hate me. This seems counter intuitive. I think that if I liberate a civ, they should always be grateful to me, and not mock me. Hell maybe make them a permanent ally. I am not quite sure yet. But the thing I do know is it should be similar to colonies in cIV where they get a huge diplo bonus with me. I don't want civs hating me for liberating them.

    4. Close Borders

    I don't think that close borders should instantly be a reason for war. Can you imagine if that was true? "Alright Canada, your borders are a bit too close, time to make you the 51st state!" I have no problem with them being uncomfortable with it, but if I am friendly with the nation, the close borders should not matter. If I am hostile with the nation the close proximity should matter more.

    5. More "Hostile"

    I like when it shows me which civ is hostile, and I know that I can go to them and see if they call me friend, but wouldn't it be easier to have something that says friendly? At least give me a small indicator on the diplo screen so I don't have to waste my time checking each one. Especially with how fickle the AI is in changing its mind on you.
     
  2. snoochems

    snoochems Prince

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    432
    I don't think the diplomacy system can be fixed easily. The clowns responsible for the game thought it would be fantastic if the AI civ's acted like human players might. This sounds great on paper, but in practice, all it does is make the AI act randomly, making diplomacy pointless.

    One of the things I miss most about Civ 4 is the role-playing you can have when dealing with other civs. You can form friendships, feuds, and gang up on others. You can manipulate the world political scene, and can start world wars... great fun. There where always logical reasons too. Be it religious, choice of civics, previous actions, trades, relationships with other civ's, etc.

    In Civ 5, all that is gone. No matter what you do, it makes 0 difference to how the other Civ see's you. They'll all declare eventually.

    This issue with Civ 5 is quite possibly why many feel the game has no heart and soul. If it could be fixed, then all those other problems the game has will be a lot easier to accept.
     
  3. Justicex

    Justicex Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Messages:
    332
    That's the problem. Random humans act randomly compared to each other, but one human has a plan and a strategy that he/she want's to see carried out. It was the right idea to think that way, but they forgot to give leaders "personality".

    In all games, the AI will declare war eventually. Usually though, the massive war efforts come when you start building the UN or spaceship parts and they need to thwart your victory efforts.

    That's the big thing missing from this game. The AI doesn't remember that sometimes you "gotta get along before you go along". I like the example of a Nascar race. You draft the person in front of you to build your speed and, when the time is right, slingshot past him.

    They really need to bring that thought process back to the AI.
     
  4. DalekDavros

    DalekDavros Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
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    303
    I agree that it shouldn't be this way in Civ, but in real life it's worth noting that this was a major cause of the War of 1812. Skip forward a few decades and replace "Canada" with "Mexico" and it was also a major cause of the Mexican-American War. If a government wants to expand its territory, whoever they share a border with is a likely target.

    An easy fix here is to pretend that this feature already exists. Notice how none of the AIs are listed as Friendly? That's because they aren't. ;)
     
  5. Becephalus

    Becephalus King

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    725
    A) I much prefer an AI that won't stay your friend in situations you would never stay its friend.

    B) It is most decidedly not all gone in Civ 5 you obviously just don't know how to use it yet.

    C) The last two sentences of yours are just a complete lie. I have gone whole game on Pangaea emperor and immortal without being declared war on. You need to you know, THINK about what you are doing.


    The diplomatic AI does need some work, but it isn't going to get better when you have people like yourself reporting false hysteria about how it behaves.
     
  6. netbrian

    netbrian Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    5
    I think it'd be a good idea for Civilizations to handle warmonger opponents with somewhat more finesse. If you're a weaker Civ bordering a powerful opponent that's declared a few wars, you might be better off trying to make yourself useful to them than just refusing to deal. If you trade luxuries them and write a few research pacts, then they have more to lose and less to gain by simply annexing you.

    This isn't an issue specific to Civ 5 of course -- I don't recall much subtly in previous versions either.
     
  7. Egnarts

    Egnarts Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2007
    Messages:
    70
    A) Then you're pretty much the only one. Civ's that's been your friend for thousands of years, that I've formed a "bond" with for one reason or another that backstabs me when I'm about to "win the game" is just annoying. It's immersion breaking, and out right stupid.

    B) what? eh? Sure, it's all still there, but who made it and what is the mayhaps of being there? But on the other hand it might just be in the no where to win what?

    C) So have I, that doesn't make the statement false however. Wan't to settle a city in a prime location? Oops, you accidently offended random AI#362 because it happened to think it was in his direction and/or too close to his imaginary border. Want to repay the AI for declaring war on you, because your 6 troops is more then enough to kill off the entire worlds, but isn't enough to keep the AIs from delcaring on you in the first place? Well, too bad, you've just had every single civ declare war on you because you conqured one city too many, who cares it wasnt you that was the agressor! Brilliant diplomacy, so happy the AI is there to win!

    AI's declaring war on you at random is not diplomacy. And let's be frank what else is there, you can't actualy be friendly with AIs in civ5, you don't really gain anything from having a long term friendly relationship with an AI either. There's no tech to be gained, you might get a research pact, but then you're ultimately giving your next enemy a free tech, because at some point that AI is going to declare war on you. You can make a buck, but who cares, I might as well raze every single city they have and conqure all the city states they have conqured and ill be better off. ZZzzzZz. I stopped caring.

    There is no diplomacy in civ5, and I doubt there ever will be anything that feels like it, prove me wrong, please.
     
  8. mirkwooduk

    mirkwooduk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
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    I agree with snoochems I think the diplomacy is a pale shadow even of civ2 let alone civ4
    The role play aspect of dealing with the civs in previous games has all but gone
    It's not hysteria but a fact
    Just play SMAC and see the difference
    It's such a shame with all the work that's gone into the presentation
     
  9. Namaspamus

    Namaspamus Warlord

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    Aug 5, 2010
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    Hiding the modifiers is fine, but they should tell more what they think. Many times when they're angry it's for a reason they don't express, like you're trading with someone against who you signed a secrecy pact 1000 years before (and couldn't cancel it).

    Or the "very well"/"you'll pay for this in time" choice. All the civs seem to know wich one you've answered and care a lot about it but they never say it. Now I say "you'll pay" everytime and it seems I'm less called a warmonger if I take cities.

    With foreign trade routes and permanent alliances it would already be much better. Then fix the "borders paranoïa", let us cancel secrecy pacts, make leaders consider past relations and act like real country leaders. Precise modifiers wouldn't have to be shown, but we could ask: "what do you like/dislike about us?" and they would list reasons by order of importance. Or just let them express themselves a little more.

    Also in Civ IV the "enemy of our enemies" effect made blocks of civs appear in a very natural way. Now we're all enemies so it can't work.
     
  10. MkLh

    MkLh King

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    Finland
    In this game, it's quite easy to survive without ever being declared on. Declare on them first.
     
  11. d4everman

    d4everman Chieftain

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    Dec 1, 2003
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    Randomly? theres nothing random about it. The AI civs will hate you just for playing. Too weak? You're a target. too strong? They hate you and you're a target. There seems to be no modifiers on the AI's behaviours that make it "like" you. You can have a civ ask you for help in a war and after the war is done they'll hate you for being a warmonger!
     
  12. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    Well, the AI doesn't and won't ever act like any competent human player would, and trying to make it halfway do so was a flawed idea from the very beginning.
     
  13. MeowTau

    MeowTau Chieftain

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    Sep 25, 2010
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    I think hiding the modifiers is more to prevent players from realizing how shallow the game is compared to Civ IV and how few things the AI is basing its decisions on. At the end of the day the only thing that really seems to matter is if you have a shared border and your military power.
     

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