A few notes re: the latest version of CEP

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hi guys, not sure if these are bugs, so just decided to report them here as part of the development process.

So far, the things that I have noticed are:

1) Caravans seem *awfully* cheap to buy. Was this a deliberate design choice?

2) I was able to build "Science" & "Wealth" from the very start of the game...not sure if that is a bug or not, though.

3) More of a personal thing, but I'd love it if the different social policies linked into each other-so that you had to definitely get one before the other-like having Aristocracy + Oligarchy in order to get Monarchy, or needing Citizenship + Collective Rule to get Republic....that kind of thing. I particularly don't think Meritocracy should be a first tier Social Policy, but should require a prerequisite.

Anyway, hope these points help, but overall I am definitely enjoying the game .

Aussie.

 

[Bridger]

1) Yes. Thal doesn't like that cargo ships are used so much more than caravans.

 

[mystikx21]

2) I believe has been in the mod going back to VEM.

3) I'd prefer a few more links but I'm not disposed to assuring the titles link logically on top of game play effects. Meritocracy so far as I recall isn't as potent as several other effects I would like to see buried more by this rationale.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

3) I'd prefer a few more links but I'm not disposed to assuring the titles link logically on top of game play effects. Meritocracy so far as I recall isn't as potent as several other effects I would like to see buried more by this rationale.

Yeah, like I said, I'd *prefer* the links, but it doesn't hurt my overall game experience that they aren't there (I confess that, as a role-playing game player, I deliberately select my social policies in that order anyway ;-) ).

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

1) Yes. Thal doesn't like that cargo ships are used so much more than caravans.

I understand that, but I still think they should be a *little* more expensive (maybe 150-200gp).

Aussie.

 

[EricB]

Having Science and Wealth available early is more of a fallback option. Sometimes you have a really heavy production city very early in the game. You don't want to build units or a building because your economy is in the red already. You build Wealth just to get out of the negative gold situation.

 

[Tomice]

As EricB said, it's there, but not attractive enough to be more than a fallback solution. I use it rarely, if ever.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, kind of posting as I play through. These are a few additional thoughts:

1) Terracotta Army still has its old effects in the splash screen, might want to clean that up.

2) I genuinely feel that the Writers Guild comes way too late-& makes much more sense switching to the "Drama & Poetry" Tech-though maybe swapping with something already there.

3) I always felt that Castles & Palaces should have slots for Great Works of Art. At the moment you have a ridiculous gap between having access to an Artist's Guild, & having places to put the art you produce.

Aussie.

 

[Ahriman]

3) I always felt that Castles & Palaces should have slots for Great Works of Art. At the moment you have a ridiculous gap between having access to an Artist's Guild, & having places to put the art you produce.

I would disagree with adding slots to castles or anything else; I think putting more great works slots on buildings would tend to devalue the other slots, making museums and the various wonders that allow for artwork slots to be less important.
The palace already has an artwork slot.

But the main problem with great works in general is that they still aren't valuable enough. They really need to be boosted by the Aesthetics tree.

 

[mystikx21]

I'd rather get rid of the other palaces while we're at it.

Only the main palace should have any GW slot, and I'd agree I'd rather see a policy that bumps the tourism or culture from them.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

But the main problem with great works in general is that they still aren't valuable enough. They really need to be boosted by the Aesthetics tree.

You will get no disagreement from me on this point .

Aussie.

 

[EricB]

In the version of CEP that I play with I've already implemented most of those suggestions offered. I moved the Writer's Guild to Drama & Poetry from Philosophy so that it's available earlier. I moved one of the wonders to Philosophy so that the Drama tech isn't overloaded and there's something on Philosophy.

I also disabled the 3 small palaces that are in CEP and put some of their effects on the Capital building. I felt that it set an ideal number of 3 cities to expand to in the early stages when I'd rather not have an arbitrary number of ideal cities. New cities beyond your capital now start with nothing. I also took away the culture from the capital building but added +2 happiness (to compensate for the lost palace). It retains the gold and science that it had, so on turn 1 you have 3 total science (2 from the capital building and 1 from population). Science starts a bit slower than in normal CEP, which starts with 5 science on turn 1. I like it better with a bit longer ancient era. It doesn't feel so rushed anymore. It also allows civs that have unique ancient era units to be able to use them longer.

 

[lockstep]

I always felt that Castles & Palaces should have slots for Great Works of Art. At the moment you have a ridiculous gap between having access to an Artist's Guild, & having places to put the art you produce.

Have a look at my Art Buildings Tweaks (BNW) mod.

 

[mitsho]

I would disagree with adding slots to castles or anything else; I think putting more great works slots on buildings would tend to devalue the other slots, making museums and the various wonders that allow for artwork slots to be less important.
The palace already has an artwork slot.

Agreed that there don't necessarily have to be more slots, but if they're added, castles seem to be the best building to put them on. It's a building that seems realistic (counts horde art), doesn't upset the balance in gameplay and gets build not often enough if you compare it to the real world counterparts. I'd also gladly lose the one on the palace(s), as that is one more point in which the capital will always be better than the other cities, especially if we boost them through the Aesthetics tree (or an ideology for that matter) which I'd also support More freedom to specialize!

 

[Tomice]

In the version of CEP that I play with I've already implemented most of those suggestions offered. I moved the Writer's Guild to Drama & Poetry from Philosophy so that it's available earlier. I moved one of the wonders to Philosophy so that the Drama tech isn't overloaded and there's something on Philosophy.

I also disabled the 3 small palaces that are in CEP and put some of their effects on the Capital building. I felt that it set an ideal number of 3 cities to expand to in the early stages when I'd rather not have an arbitrary number of ideal cities. New cities beyond your capital now start with nothing. I also took away the culture from the capital building but added +2 happiness (to compensate for the lost palace). It retains the gold and science that it had, so on turn 1 you have 3 total science (2 from the capital building and 1 from population). Science starts a bit slower than in normal CEP, which starts with 5 science on turn 1. I like it better with a bit longer ancient era. It doesn't feel so rushed anymore. It also allows civs that have unique ancient era units to be able to use them longer.

Hmm... The 3 palaces were never very popular (Thal had to make them invisible to be accepted), but I understood his reasoning - It is also not ideal that the initial capital is always the best city. There are other changes in Communitas that help against this, but the palaces were an important factor.

I think I asked before, but is it possible to have one palace, but to be able to move it? I think the answer was no, but I can't remember for sure.

 

[Ahriman]

I really think the small yields on the palace are not the reason why the initial capital is usually the best; that happens simply because it is founded first and it is in a decent location with resources nearby.

I'd like to see the extra palaces fully removed.

 

[jacktannery]

I really think the small yields on the palace are not the reason why the initial capital is usually the best; that happens simply because it is founded first and it is in a decent location with resources nearby.

I'd like to see the extra palaces fully removed.

I agree - both with the sentiment and with the ultimate reason: population=power. How about the Liberty Policy that gives 1 free settler and +50% settler production was changed to 1 free settler and all new cities start with population of 3. That would mean that those choosing liberty would have a quick second city that rapidly caught up with the capital.

 

[EricB]

The total changes I made in regard to the capital building and 3 palace buildings:

Capital:
Increased happiness from 6 to 8
Increased gold from 2 to 4
Decreased science from 2 to 1
Culture remains at 2
Production remains at 0

Palaces:
Decreased happiness from 2 to 0
Decreased gold from 2 to 0
Decreased science from 2 to 0
Decreased culture from 2 to 0
Decreased production from 2 to 0

Basically the 3 palaces are nerfed to non-existent. The capital building gives very modest benefits that mostly contribute to national yields. It gives 8 happiness, 2 culture, 4 gold, and 1 science. On turn one you're at +4 net happiness, +2 culture, +2 science (1 from population), gold is usually +4 gold (1 more coming from the city center and -1 for unit maintenance on the starting warrior unit).

Yields are much smaller than what most people would like I know, but I like a playstyle of starting with nothing and building from there. If I wanted to start with cities already having plenty of gold and plenty of culture and production, then I'd start the game in a later era. With these settings, the capital city doesn't really stand out from the rest of the cities very much. It has a marginal amount of gold, science, and culture. New cities start off with 0 culture. They give no extra happiness. Expansion is slower of course and depends on finding luxury resources, social policies, and happiness buildings. Many people might find that too difficult, but I really dislike it when it's too easy to expand at will.

 

[ShmooDude]

What I'd like to see is cities being stronger when founded by era outside the expansion tree.

Maybe something like:

Palaces on all non-capital cities that give 1 all yield/era (0 in ancient)? Other people might have better ideas.

 

[Zaldron]

Capital:
Production remains at 0

Palaces:
Decreased production from 2 to 0

I have to ask, but doesn't this pretty much mean you have to reroll the map until you start on a hill so you have production to work with (2 vs 1).