A few Q's I've been saving up..

[RedFury]

Hi all,

I've been saving up a few Q's to ask in these forums, ones I am struggling to find answers to using the search function. They're more advanced rather than simple questions, so I thought I'd get them all done in one thread, and hopefully they are interesting enough that some of the more advanced players could help me out. FYI I am an Emperor player (winning almost 100% now) looking to move up to Immortal.

1) I have recently become much more competent at blocking off land from the AI in my early games then backfilling the open spaces. However, I always take ages to open my borders with AI's, usually not doing so until I've settled enough cities that my culture covers the blocked off area. I'm really paranoid about the AI either:
a) Sending settlers through my culture Or
b) Sailing around the coast with a settler

So I guess my question here is: as of the latest patch, do AI's send settlers through your culture on land? What about sailing them through your (coastal) culture using caravels to get behind your blocking culture? Once my land-block is complete am I being inefficient by not opening borders?

2) I used to always play continents, but recently have moved to fractal/pangea and have noticed the tech rate on them to be far faster because of more AI's on the landmass and hence lots more trading. This has actually made my emperor games a fair amount more challenging. Would people agree/disagree that games can be more challenging when many AI's are teching/trading v. fast on the same landmass? Obviously it means you can trade more as well, but I still feel like it narrows the tech-gap and gives you less time to war at key techs like Engineering/Rifling/Steel/MT/AL/etc.

3) I used to be the biggest fan of cannons in the world - always beeling to them and rolling over my enemies. However, recently I saw some great players like Duckweed and Dirk stomping Deity AI's with cav's and decided to give it a go. WOW - got my first 1400s domination wins (8 AI's - standard map) on emperor using Cav's, something I was never able to pull off with cannons. I've done it twice now. My question is, on emperor its pretty easy to choose either cannons or cavs and still be successful, but I'm guessing on the higher levels you probably have to be a lot more selective. What are some of the factors that you would consider when choosing whether to go Steel or Mil Trad/Rifling to knock heads with the AI?

4) What world wonders are *so good* that people would still consider building them under good enough circumstances whilst not having the key resource or industrious? I am specifically thinking about things like the great library here .. do you high level players still build it even without marble? I love that wonder but never seem to get marble early in many of my games. Are there any other wonders that people would build (under good circumstances of course) without the key resource?

5) I've been thinking about espionage economy lately and I know that with all the discounts you can get (5 turn stationary spy, total EP, etc) you can end up paying a fair amount less in beaker cost than just researching it. The obvious problem is that you can't really gain too much of a tech-lead using this strategy. Obviously, this lends itself much better to high level games where you have trouble keeping up anyways. I was thinking specifically on Deity where the AI's tech like crazy, setting up an Espionage economy might be a good strategy. For example, if you start isolated with 1 other Deity AI who won't trade with you, setting up an EE and stealing all the techs would seem possibly more efficient than teching yourself?

However, I"ve been following a lot of the Deity games on this forum lately and haven't seen anyone really try it. I'm wondering if there's significant drawbacks I'm not thinking of, or if someone could point me in the direction of a post where someone has used this effectively.

*Exhales* glad I got all that off my chest. Any/all responses welcome!

edit: fixed embarassing spelling of Deity.

 

[Silu]

1) I have recently become much more competent at blocking off land from the AI in my early games then backfilling the open spaces. However, I always take ages to open my borders with AI's, usually not doing so until I've settled enough cities that my culture covers the blocked off area. I'm really paranoid about the AI either:
a) Sending settlers through my culture Or
b) Sailing around the coast with a settler

So I guess my question here is: as of the latest patch, do AI's send settlers through your culture on land? What about sailing them through your (coastal) culture using caravels to get behind your blocking culture? Once my land-block is complete am I being inefficient by not opening borders?

The AI doesn't send settlers through your culture if you have a total land block (though settlers already sent do not turn back - learned this the hard way). They might do this with boats, though (though not with Caravels ). Just have OB and cancel them (no diplo penalty) if you see the wrong kind of stuff coming through.

2) I used to always play continents, but recently have moved to fractal/pangea and have noticed the tech rate on them to be far faster because of more AI's on the landmass and hence lots more trading. This has actually made my emperor games a fair amount more challenging. Would people agree/disagree that games can be more challenging when many AI's are teching/trading v. fast on the same landmass? Obviously it means you can trade more as well, but I still feel like it narrows the tech-gap and gives you less time to war at key techs like Engineering/Rifling/Steel/MT/AL/etc.

Pangaea-style maps are more dependant on the diplo situation - there's more variance. Sometimes the whole continent is wrapped in perpetuous war and sometimes it's a massive grouphug.

3) I used to be the biggest fan of cannons in the world - always beeling to them and rolling over my enemies. However, recently I saw some great players like Duckweed and Dirk stomping Diety AI's with cav's and decided to give it a go. WOW - got my first 1400s domination wins (8 AI's - standard map) on emperor using Cav's, something I was never able to pull off with cannons. I've done it twice now. My question is, on emperor its pretty easy to choose either cannons or cavs and still be successful, but I'm guessing on the higher levels you probably have to be a lot more selective. What are some of the factors that you would consider when choosing whether to go Steel or Mil Trad/Rifling to knock heads with the AI?

Cavalry if you have a big tech lead (pure Cavalry before they have Rifling, Cav+Flight otherwise). Cannons are better at parity or close to it.

4) What world wonders are *so good* that people would still consider building them under good enough circumstances whilst not having the key resource or industrious? I am specifically thinking about things like the great library here .. do you high level players still build it even without marble? I love that wonder but never seem to get marble early in many of my games. Are there any other wonders that people would build (under good circumstances of course) without the key resource?

GLH is the prime example... though it doesn't have a resource. I rarely make any wonders without the appropriate resource, exceptions include some key wonders if you have a tech lead to it (to make up for the longer build time) such as Taj Mahal or TGL.

5) I've been thinking about espionage economy lately and I know that with all the discounts you can get (5 turn stationary spy, total EP, etc) you can end up paying a fair amount less in beaker cost than just researching it. The obvious problem is that you can't really gain too much of a tech-lead using this strategy. Obviously, this lends itself much better to high level games where you have trouble keeping up anyways. I was thinking specifically on Deity where the AI's tech like crazy, setting up an Espionage economy might be a good strategy. For example, if you start isolated with 1 other Diety AI who won't trade with you, setting up an EE and stealing all the techs would seem possibly more efficient than teching yourself?

Thing is, there's only so much you can do at Deity by never having a tech lead. Space is certainly out of question, and warfare is quite obnoxious too. I'd guess one problem is diplo in your scenario, though I don't remember what's the cap in the caught spy diplo penalty.

 

[bestsss]

On Deity most AIs keep slider at 20% espionage and build every espionage building there is in a couple of turns. After democracy it gets terrible. However the AI is ******** (and I believe that's a damn easy fix) and doesn't use counter-espionage. That would make EE economy impossible.

My greatest gripe about that is the absolutely inconvenient interface. I never know which spies have matured enough, so I ended up checking everyone. That's more time consuming than large-scale wars.

Cavalry + Flanking 2 rocks on its own, adding spies makes a great deal. By that time, one can get jails as well to boost the espionage via the slider significantly. Look at SG subforum "Deity Challengers" - they are on their way to smack [brutally] poor Monthy w/ Cossacks. It does work on deity for sure. Another benefit of not going draft/cannon is that the AI cannot reinforce well. On deity level the AI virtually builds everything in a turn or 2...
====
Wonders: situational; the great library is good in every aspect (incl. deny), oracle too but heck it's bad tech path to get there (most of the time). Internet later on, however, it's quite possible to trade for copper, anyways.

 

[Negator_UK]

Would people agree/disagree that games can be more challenging when many AI's are teching/trading v. fast on the same landmass?

Agree - its even more challenging when there are many AI's on the other side of the world having an intellectual love-fest and you are stuck on a second rate island with Shaka and Toku...

 

[Dirk1302]

Agree with Silu's answers. GLH is the only wonder i'd build without resource. Industrious changes the whole thing a bit, it's situational in that case. Espionage can be very powerful. On deity you need to be careful whom you're stealing from, diplo goes south very fast when you use spies. So choose a vassal or some mug you don't care about anyway. The cost of setting it all up is rather high so you need to be able to steal more than a few valuable techs, it's not worth it otherwise i feel. As bestsss mentions it's also rather RL time consuming.

 

[madscientist]

My view, from the eyes of an emperor wanna be Immortalist

1) No open border means less commerce and third party AIs are teching away like crazy. Keep them closed to set up the initial block, then open up borders. Some AIs may settle behind culture borders IF limited in land. Scout out all the land to get an idea of what they may be planning. The latest patch allows AIs to settle behind your blocks (at least I have seen this).

2) Yes I have found this to be the case. My first successful jumps in levels have always been on continet or hemisphere maps. It also depends on the leaders though, a continent map with Mansa/Gandhi/darius in a religion lovefest is alot different from religious wars between Isabella/Justinian/Charlemagen. Myself, I use the random map generator which gices me the most random map I can get.

3) Cavalry's advantage is mobility and a great counter to cannons in the hands of the enemy. They even do decently against rifles. It's really game dependent but I prefer steel over military tradition because it get's me to railroad that much faster. To be honest, both ways work well.

4) Now that I play Immortal (and usually lose) I will say following are the strongest: Great Wall, Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, Great Library, Statue of Liberty. However, none of these I will try without the resource except perhaps the Great Wall which is cheap enough the hammer loss is reinvested by reducing the need for so many early military units, or the Great Lighthouse given the proper map and capital.

5) EE is very powerful but also fairly tedious. I ran a successful RPC (at monarch) stealing all techs after Code of Laws and launched the spaceship. Tech trading is a very big part here, the idea is to steal AI monopoly techs and fire-sale them, example steal metal casting that only 1 AI has and trade it for whatever you get. IN a sense, it's similar to using GPs to bulb a tech and trade it. The key also is getting GSpys which usually requires the Great Wall and very early courthouses (or Zigs if Gilgamesh).

 

[lilnev]

1) They will eventually settle your backlands, but not for a long time. Open borders, and just keep your eyes open to be ready to close them if needed. I think the AI's decisions may be based on absolute distance (from the capital?) rather than contiguity, however, so if you've blocked a peninsula that projects back towards AI land, don't be surprised if a settler tries to sneak in.

3) I seldom use cavalry -- probably less often than I should. I usually consider it a decision between rifles (draftable) and cannons. Or at least, which first?

4) GLH, as people have said. The Oracle is cheap enough that Marble isn't necessary -- it's more a question of the number of beakers required for Priesthood in a timely manner. So I'm most likely to go for it when I have Gems or Gold, not necessarily Marble. Maybe the Great Library if I have a sufficiently strong production city, a good tech rate to get to Lit (I haven't crashed by REXing), and I'm not planning a war -- but that's a lot of "ifs".

 

[Windsor]

I'm a big fan of the oracle without marble if I have some commerce. Cheap wonder, nice benefit and you rarely loose it. Marble doesn't really speed up the wonder anyway.

Great library, if I got literature and belive I have a decent chance of grabbing it, it's still worth it. However, if I don't have marble both aesthetics and literature becomes less attractive. And there's no more annoying thing than researching aesthetics while the AI goes math > IW > Col > masonry > construction > alphabet.

 

[JTMacc99]

3) I seldom use cavalry -- probably less often than I should. I usually consider it a decision between rifles (draftable) and cannons. Or at least, which first?

Monarch player chiming in here: I also flove cannons, but recently used cuirassiers -> cavalry to storm through a bunch of pre-rifle civs and have made a note to do it again. That whole speed thing is a real game breaker if you time it right.

 

[Dirk1302]

I forgot oracle, if i have a commerce resource and start mysticism it's likely i try this one.

 

[madscientist]

My love of the Oracle has dropped drastically as my level increased. CHopping it out is fine, but researching mysticism, meditation and priesthood early enough to beat the AI is a killer. If I start with mysticism and good food/military then perhaps yes, but I rarely find that free tech worth the slower developement.

 

[r_rolo1]

About the espioange question ( #5 ): stealing techs from the AI does not exclude teching some stuff by yourself In that sense it is similar to what most players do in high levels: tech in one direction and trade the rest with the AI, with the diference you steal from them Anyway, when all the espionage buildings are laid down a city produces easily 40 EPT @ 0% , and this discounting hired or settled spies, SY or wonders that give Spy GPP, so if you make all the buildings in most cities you can still have a nice stream of EP regardless of how you manage the slider

 

[troytheface]

1- do AI's send settlers through your culture on land? What about sailing them through your (coastal) culture using caravels to get behind your blocking culture? Once my land-block is complete am I being inefficient by not opening borders?

I suggest refraining from paranoia at any level and letting a settler go through the land. when a stream of workers go to help capture them and the city
and yes you are being inefficent

2-Would people agree/disagree that games can be more challenging when many AI's are teching/trading v. fast on the same landmass?
no it is easier. everythng is easier, trade war ect.. Fractal , standard map.

3.I'm guessing on the higher levels you probably have to be a lot more selective. What are some of the factors that you would consider when choosing whether to go Steel or Mil Trad/Rifling to knock heads with the AI?
horse is best from chariot to chopper factoring in the fact steel is easy to get
but why are you guessing at higher levels? i thought you were at a higher level?

4.What world wonders are *so good* that people would still consider building them under good enough circumstances whilst not having the key resource or industrious?
Great Wall. Which is why question 5 is even posed.

5. For example, if you start isolated with 1 other Diety AI who won't trade with you, setting up an EE and stealing all the techs would seem possibly more efficient than teching yourself?
if your with another "diety" AI you are not isolated. tech path trade specific and tech steal

the evidence is clear. this is the superior

 

[Insanity_X]

actually Tracko, I think that being stranded with one AI is in some ways worse than being isolated. you get less land, and in most cases wont trade with you (few non friendly AIs will give you a monopoly tech), thus until optics/they're friendly/a vassal, you must research/steal everything yourself. and if its a diety AI, war is less likely to be feasible (thus no vassalisation), getting to friendly might not be easy/possible. which combine to make an 'espionage ecconomy' more important than normal.

 

[Silu]

I'm not aware of all the slang used on CFC yet - this "diety AI" people keep mentioning, is it Gandhi? Certainly not Vicky or Kublai.

 

[troytheface]

Fact- Venn Diagram analysis points to two civs on one land mass as 4.7 times easier than single isle isolation at levels beyond belief

Fact- diety AI is nicer than non diety AI

the evidence is clear, paranoia as suspician - mounted units- suspician as paranoia going into any espionage mode.

 

[RedFury]

thanks for the responses everyone.

I'm honored to even get a response from the fabled 'Attacko'. And yes, I'm embaraassed about my "Diety" AI and have corrected it

Troy: If you're stuck on a land mass with one other AI, and there are 7 other AI's on another land mass having a peacemonger trading lovefest - I would still call that rather isolated.

Q1) It's nice to learn a little more about how the AI handles open borders. I've started opening my borders a lot more now and am simply watching for AI settlers coming through. So far nobody has tried anything dodgy on me. It really does add a nice boost to the commerce which I was probably underestimating, especially after currency. Haven't seen the AI sail any galleys round yet either, mind you there are barb galley's everywhere so I'm not surprised (side note: I *really* hate these guys, they are so difficult to handle early-on. I always seem to lose at least 1-2 fishing boats before I get enough galley's out to beat them.)

Q2) I guess I've learnt its very dependent on who's on the other continent(s) as well. Being isolated with a single AI can be far worse than starting on a lovefest continent. In my experience, I'd still say Pangea type maps tend to be more challenging than Continents scripts, but that could be just luck due to the opponents I've generated on those continents. My experience with emperor has been massively varying in terms of tech rate - I've discovered liberalism myself in 1300 AD (yes, late, when I first moved up a level) in one game and had Mansa take it in 300 AD in another.

Q3) Good answers. I agree with Silu about Cav's being better with a tech lead. The thing I find is that you can have a military tech lead without actually having a tech lead because the AI's take so damn long to research Rifling. Sometimes I think the AI's would be much tougher if they went for rifling sooner - I've taken over entire continents in the time between when the AI *should* have researched rifling, and the time it actually decided to finally pick it up. Democracy, corporation, liberalism, constitution, etc are nice techs but when you're only two techs away from fielding rifles and another civ has cavs stomping mercilessly all over your neighbours and heading in your direction, surely its a pretty easy decision. The AI really drops the ball here IMO.

Q4) This is pretty much what I was thinking. GLH obviously as its resource-less. GL if the conditions are right. Would people also add Taj to this list? I've always though with an empire of 10+ cities, the golden age is pretty damn useful especially if you've got civic changes you'd like to make. Oracle is something I confess I rarely build at higher levels, its just too much of a diversion imo. Of course, if I get a good commerce start (gems, gold in capital, etc) I might go for it - but that never seems to happen for me.

Q5) Yeah, guess I hadn't really thought about all the setup costs. When I posed this question, I was more thinking about combining it with research beelining. I agree with Mad Scientist in that the best use would be to grab monopoly techs as soon as the AI gets them and trade them around for everything that you can get. The diplomacy penalty I hadn't really considered. I guess you would have to pick an AI who techs fairly quickly but isn't really a massive military threat. Mansa comes to mind - although he's always willing to trade techs anyway so perhaps not the best choice.

You'd have to do this evaluation on a game-by-game basis. Look for a couple of AI's with reasonably low UnitProb who don't share borders with you and also can keep up a decent tech rate. I'd have to actually attempt a game like this to really understand what I'm talking about here, obviously.

Anyways, thanks for the discussions everyone, keep it coming!