A Few Questions About a Recent Game

[JonathanValjean]

Hello guys. I just wanted to run a few questions by some of you veterans on here about a recent game I played. Personally, I've only been playing Civ III a little over a month; so, these questions will sound quite elementary to many of you, I'm sure.
In this game, I utilized my first military strategy, which spawned these questions. (Before I had used Cultural/Space Race strategies.)

Here is the basic setup: Zulu on Monarch level (my first Monarch game).

1) My army consisting of 3 Elite Cavalry lost to 1 Cavalry defending a size 3 city on plains terrain.

2) My army consisting of 3 Veteran Infantry, stationed in a size 6 city, lost to a regular Infantry with only 2 hit points left that was on plains!

Concerning 1) and 2): do these things happen often? I know that there is degree of randomness (welcomed) to combat; however, I thought those battles were a bit too random! I could accept number 1, but number 2 was a bit much...

3) I built the Heroic Epic small wonder, and had 750 years more of battles, almost constantly. I produced no more great leaders. Is this an anomaly? If it is a fairly common occurence, I don't think I will built it again.

I want to stress that I didn't create this thread in order to rant about the game, for I think it is the best game ever created! I would just like some feedback concerning those issues.

Thanks for any responses.

P.S.--Oh, yeah. No, I didn't win my first Monarch game. I came in 2nd in the histo. Maybe next time.

 

[whodat]

I have had battles like that swing in my favor and I have also lost many like that. As far as great leaders. I just finished a monarch game with battles the whole way through and ony produced three great leaders.

 

[Arvedui]

In my experience it is very possible to go for a very long time without GL. Sometimes it happens, even with Heroic Epic.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Do you have v1.29f patch installed. Sounds like you already had a few great leaders. In patches prior to 1.29f you wouldn't know which units had already generated a leader, so would be using them continuously (a unit can only generate a leader once, until it has been upgraded, then can generate another, this is why the units are named and marked with a '*' in the last patch).

 

[Cantankerous]

It sounds like your combat results are unusual, but not unheardof. Three 3 elite Cavalry shouldn't all lose when attacking one defending cavalry in a size 3 city, but that's not to say it can't happen.

But don't fret. While results like that may occur on occasion, they certainly aren't "normal".

As far as the Heroic Epic goes, I can't see a valid reason NOT to build it as soon as possible.

Firaxis has said that there is a 1 in 16 chance of an elite unit producing a leader when it wins in combat (except that no great leaders can be produced when fighting barbarians). With Heroic Epic your odds greatly improve to a 1 in 12 chance. If nothing else, Heroic Epic produces additional culture in the city in which you've built it. And that's never bad.

So while having Heroic Epic doesn't guarantee more leaders, it certainly makes them more likely to appear.

And like Bamspeedy said, an elite unit can only produce one leader EVER unless said unit is later upgraded and is once again promoted to elite status. So it's possible that you may have been using the unit(s) that had already produced great leaders and thus would not be able to produce new ones.

But it sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on the game if you've only been playing Civ 3 for a month or so and you're already being very competitive on Monarch level. It took me a long time before I felt comfortable playing on Monarch level.

Good luck!

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

as for the combat results: I get .3% probability results all the time, actually, only 40% of my combats have a result with a probability of higher than 40%!

3) The HE improves your chances - but as with combat, the RNG gives results that IMHO are a bit too random for Civ3. I'd like it to give a bell-shaed distribution, but it doesn't. Build the Epic if you need it or have spare prodcution - it gives culture, too and can be used as a pre-production for wonders! That is: if you know there will not be a land war for a long time AND you have other very important stuff to build, you can hold on the Epic

 

[Raijer]

Unfortunately, I too can vouch for your results, though I agree with whodat concerning those (rare) times this type of anomoly works in your favor. I'm currently playing China. I've already wiped France off the map, and am half way to serving England the same fate. Great Leaders? Not a one.

Granted, I don't have Heroic Epic (yet), and my experiments with timing my elites to be the winning factor have proven illfated. But vetrans performing better than elites is another thread (or perhaps a million of them).

We can only hang in there, no?

 

[sumthinelse]

Did you know that armies can never create leaders? Never, never, never, not even if they win 500 times.

 

[JonathanValjean]

Thanks for all of your responses. Bamspeedy, I have actually had patch 1.29f since I started playing the game, and I was aware of the units that had produced great leaders were denoted by an asterisk. I did not realize, however, that the unit could produce another Great Leader. Thanks for that tip (and for your others). Cantankerous, thanks for those statistics from Firaxis. It is always good to be armed with good hard facts before acting. Thanks for your compliments, too. The truth is, I stayed up far too late on far too many occasions during that first month trying to master the game. I wouldn't allow myself the indulgence of reading any strategy or tips until I won on Regent. I wanted to see how far I could go on my own. However, because I employed a cultural/space race on the first three levels, and had heard it was more difficult to win at the higher levels using those strategies, I decided to take a peek inside the War Academy. I was amazed by the quality and quantity of material there! Wow! I especially enjoyed Zachriel's GOTM epic retellings of his games. I you haven't checked them out, you should. Sorry about that tangent guys. Raijer, I'm going to continue hanging in there, and you do the same.

 

[gugalpm]

Newbie Questions thread...

 

[JonathanValjean]

Gugalpm, thanks for the tip. I feel justified, however, when the main referrer to the Newbie Thread himself, Lt. 'Killer' M, responded to my question and did not insist that it go in the Newbie Thread. I might be in error, but I don't think a question qualifies for the Newbie Thread when it refers to armies and the Heroic Epic in a game being played on Monarch level.

Paz a você, Gugalpm, e também "Ordem e Progreso."

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

JV: I didn't point you there because your questions all require discussion - so they are NOT simply noob questions but rather the kind of thread starters that lead to (sometimes heated) discussions on the ins and outs of the game. Best way to learn!

 

[Park Ranger]

I've also had some dismal experiences trying to get a great leader.

I've also seen the AI get a GL with an elite warrior in their first attack on my units. Happened in 2 different games.

Having exceptional luck with current game: built the HE in 350BC, and have had 3 leaders since, all during middle ages. Lots of war in this game, though, with 5-6 battles involving elites every 3-4 turns.

I always do better with leaders when playing militaristic civs. This should go without saying: it is so much easier to build up a force of elite units with those frequent promotions.

 

[CurtSibling]

I will share my most glorious CIV moment with youse!

I was mighty Germany, but getting a beating from the villianous Russians...

In one awesome, war-winning turn, I gathered my last reserves of Panzers,
Muttering to the gods of war I sent them against vast stacks of Russian Paratroops, Infantry, Cavalry and Tanks...

I destroyed;
A 20+ stack of Cavalry and Infantry,
A stack of 10 Tanks,
A GL Army of Cavalry,
A GL Army of Tanks,
A 2nd GL Army of Cavalry,
Approx 6 Paratroops and Marines,

And various pathetic units like Longbows, and a few dreaded Spearmen!

This ended the Russian war effort, and enabled me to take Moscow 3 turns later...

All this for the loss of about 10 Panzers...a good trade off!!!

I didn't get a GL though!!!

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Curt: it seems we are two of a kind as far as leaders are concerned what OS are you using? I have WinXP and get no leaders whatsoever

 

[Aggie]

I also have WinXP and never have problems getting a GL......

 

[Arathorn]

I like the PRNG...it's very good and provides a nice uniform distribution of random numbers, which is what it should do. Humans are horrible at generating random numbers. As a species, we never expect the runs of 1's and 0's (just generating binary random) that a true random source will create. And so when confronted with good random data, we don't recognize it.

Having tracked, I can tell you that the PRNG is good and accurate. Leaders come and go. Check out the http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=19001 thread for a bunch of leaders. It's all how much you're fighting with elites.

I've been on both ends of the luck spectrum so many times I've lost count. From my regular warrior killing off 2 attacking archers and a horsemen plus sending a number of MWs uphill vs. muskets all the way to sending 3 4-knight armies to the glue factory trying to scratch a musketman. It happens -- both ways.

Plus, a lot of people don't pay enough attention to defender bonus. That fortified "spearman" in a metropolis on a hill across a river has an effective defense somewhere in the 9 range. Actually figure the odds and track your progress and you'll find it nearly ideal.

Arathorn

 

[RobOz]

I don't play Militaristic civs very often, so I have completed several games w/o ever getting a GL, but on the occasion that I whip out the Japanese, I can expect one or two per game. (Regent or Monarch, standard map.)

And I am not sure why the OS matters, but in case you are looking for a pattern, I use XP.