A few questions about Defensive Strikes...

[Wyrmhero]

Since Defensive Strikes have been added to FfH, I have been using archers more as defenders... And I have several questions that maybe others have too...

1) Archers have a 10% chance to use a Defensive Strike. Do all archers have this chance? Can it trigger more than once if you have several archers in a stack?

2) Drill apparently gives 10% chance to do 5% damage with a Defensive strike. Is this added to the archer's usual chance? (i.e. the damage is added, but is the chance also added?) Does it apply to non-archer units?

3) Keen Sight apparently gives 20% chance to do 0% damage on a Defensive Strike. Is this just a mistake in the tooltip, or is that actually what it does? Or does it mean that it changes the chance for a Defensive Strike to me 20%, but adds no damage?

4) Precision is currently missing any explanation at all. What does it do?

5) True Sight (new archer/hunter promotion) gives 50% bonus vs. Illusions and the ability to see invisible units. Should this give a bonus to Defensive Strikes too? Otherwise I can't see this being useful at all, expect maybe for Gilden in the scenarios vs. the Svaltafar. (but when does the AI use summons?)

6) Are they applied before or after the attack?

That's all the questions I have about Defensive Strikes currently, but I'm sure I will think of more. Thanks for any explanations.

 

[BeefontheBone]

Incomplete answers:

1) Yes, but only once for each, and only once against any given attacker. IIRC the unit using the strike can't have attacked on its turn either.

2) Not 100% sure, but I believe the quoted chances and damages should all read "+x% chance" and so on, so it's added. It definitely applies to non-archer units - I just had a knight slightly damage a unit attacking a city with it.

3) I believe you're right, and it boosts the chance but not the damage.

4) Boosts damage but not chance, I believe - should be in the changelog thread.

6) Before.

 

[Kael]

Since Defensive Strikes have been added to FfH, I have been using archers more as defenders... And I have several questions that maybe others have too...

1) Archers have a 10% chance to use a Defensive Strike. Do all archers have this chance? Can it trigger more than once if you have several archers in a stack?

If you mean all archers in a stack, then no. Only 1 archer can attempt to make a defensive strike in each stack. The game picks the best one to try to make the stirke (but if it fails its chance then no defensive strike is done).

The advantage of multiple defensive strikers in one stack is that they help defend against different attacks (since a defensive strike can only be done by a unit once per turn).

2) Drill apparently gives 10% chance to do 5% damage with a Defensive strike. Is this added to the archer's usual chance? (i.e. the damage is added, but is the chance also added?) Does it apply to non-archer units?

Yes its added to the archers usual chances. Yes it applies to non-archer units. So you can see a defensive strike launched by a champion if he has drill promotions. But since a champion has a base 0% chance and damage he will be less effective than an archer at it.

3) Keen Sight apparently gives 20% chance to do 0% damage on a Defensive Strike. Is this just a mistake in the tooltip, or is that actually what it does? Or does it mean that it changes the chance for a Defensive Strike to me 20%, but adds no damage?

Thats right +20% chance to do the strike, but it doesnt effect damage.

4) Precision is currently missing any explanation at all. What does it do?

Precision gives +10% defensive strike damage.

5) True Sight (new archer/hunter promotion) gives 50% bonus vs. Illusions and the ability to see invisible units. Should this give a bonus to Defensive Strikes too? Otherwise I can't see this being useful at all, expect maybe for Gilden in the scenarios vs. the Svaltafar. (but when does the AI use summons?)

Nope. Seeing invisible is pretty cool.

6) Are they applied before or after the attack?

Before.

 

[Wyrmhero]

Thanks for the response Kael.

 

[jwin]

Does Blur counter the defensive strike bonuses gained by the drill line, like it counters the first strikes? If it doesn't, should it?

 

[Tugendbold]

The advantage of multiple defensive strikers in one stack is that they help defend against different attacks (since a defensive strike can only be done by a unit once per turn).

I am pretty sure units with blitz can make defensive strikes on every unit that attacks them. I once had a mutated high level crossbowman that had all the usefull promotions + cannibalism. The attacking units were damaged up to 45% from defensive strikes and no matter how big the stack my unit would always survive unscathed

 

[Merddyn]

If it had blitz, Orthus's axe, or another form of "can attack multiple times per turn" then it'd defensive-strike every time it had the odds... With Crossbowman at drill 4 and keen eyes, I think that's actually 100%...

 

[Kjara]

Comments about defensive strikes:
It seems to be quite useful/balanced with normal units(or at least not grossly unbalanced). I worry about the ability for the player to abuse it where the computer can't. The big problem seems to be the unlimited strikes due to blitz. In a recent engagement using a mounted hero(valin phanuel) who had merely gotten the 4 drill promotions and blitz managed to do about 20% damage to 1/3rd of the attackers coming at my force. I can hardly imagine what one could achieve with something like arthendien with all the defensive strike promotions and blitz. He would be doing 50% damage 100% of the time, on top of having ~5-9 first strikes?


I suggest that blitz not give unlimited defensive strikes. First, its a great promotion on its own, if you really want to create a unlimited defensive strike promotion, make it archer only at least, so that it actually buffs archer units. Right now with a single hero being able to defensive strike everything, as well as having the high strength to back it up, means that there's no need to carry archer units for the defensive strikes. Its not like grabbing drill after finishing the combat line weakens a hero anyhow. Currently its just an added bonus for the player over the comp who doesn't use heroes well.

 

[Fafnir13]

Quick question:

Does using/attempting to use a defensive strike take up the attack action? I play LAN a bit with simultaneous turns. Stacks that have been attacked will often have units with the ability to use defensive strikes unable to attack for that turn. Intentional? Something else entirely?

 

[Kjara]

Well units that have attacked can't defensive strike, so I would guess that to keep units from making more than one defensive strike, the easy solution would be to mark the unit as "attacked this round" after it has done a defensive strike. I'm guessing that blitz ignores this variable, and this is what allows blitz units to have unlimited defensive strikes.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I don't think blitz giving infinite defensive strikes is intended ( sounds very powerful... ), maybe it should be mentioned in the bug thread.

 

[Kenjister]

I don't think blitz giving infinite defensive strikes is intended ( sounds very powerful... ), maybe it should be mentioned in the bug thread.

I don't know if it's intended or not, but it's not really all that powerful. Unless you're doing a cross-continental invasion, then one Combat 5 Crossbow with the defensive strike promotions maxed out can eat entire armies alone. Easy. That's if you have one though.
The thing that keep it from being overpowered is simply the rarity of having a ranged unit with drill 4, precision, keen sight and blitz. Heros might get the drill promotions and blitz, but their lack of base chance and damage make those defensive strikes quite weak.
So I think that though it might not be intended, leave it as it is. It makes for a more interesting choice with your ranged unit too. Should I promote to presicion, keen sight, or for blitz? Each one gives a very different benefit, and makes the game that much more fun!

 

[Grey Fox]

Infinite defensive strikes does not sound like an intentional effect. Might be fun in the hands of a single player human vs the AI (but not in the long run), dreadful in multiplayer.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I don't even see how you could accidentally tie an ability like "infinite defensive strikes" to a promotion.

It's like, the default state of any unit or promotion is "no defensive strikes". You need to specify "this promotion can grant the ability to defensive strike x times" or there will be no defensive strikes. Blitz, as far as I know, is the only source of unlimited DSes. Isn't that something Kael would have to explicitly code in to Blitz?

In a recent engagement using a mounted hero(valin phanuel) who had merely gotten the 4 drill promotions and blitz managed to do about 20% damage to 1/3rd of the attackers coming at my force.

That doesn't sound right. Defensive strike damage takes a 2% penalty for each level the attack has and a 2% penalty for each point of defensive strength the attacker has. That's -10% vs. a totally green axeman with no metal. Random variance should get Valin with drill 4 the odd 20% damage DS, but not 1/3rd of the time.

I can hardly imagine what one could achieve with something like arthendien with all the defensive strike promotions and blitz. He would be doing 50% damage 100% of the time, on top of having ~5-9 first strikes?

Well it's about damn time Arthendain got good for something. "hurr i am life 2 mage with moar str" never cut it.

Also, consider flurries promoted up the drill line. They START with blitz. Pretty sweet, huh?

 

[Grey Fox]

I think the ability to do a defensive strike is tied to the "has attacked this turn", and a unit with blitz is not affected by that.

 

[odalrick]

The very first post that described Defensive Strike mentioned Blitz allows unlimited strikes, so I doubt it is an unintended effect.

 

[Kjara]

I could have sworn that attacker strength was factored in there as well, reading back this doesn't seem to be the case.

I'll admit I wasn't watching the numbers too closely, and there were a few <10 hits, but there seemed to be a proportionally large number of them that were 20 or very close to it. Of course it was a pretty small sample size(only around 15 attackers).

As I said earlier I'd love to see unlimited defensive strikes become archer only at the very least.

Still the problem is that with one hero you have as good as a green crossbowman that can do unlimited defensive strikes. No, this isn't overly broken, but it leaves one with little cause to want to use archer units for defensive strikes(I don't know about you, but I rarely have experienced archer units if the game is going well and I'm on the offense with mithril champions).

 

[Blackmantle]

Disagree with Drill 4 + Blitz + keen sight + the other Promotion (thats 7 Promotions in total. Awfully expensive in terms of XP...) and unlimited def-strikes being overpowered. Those rare few units that get 100 % (only the tier 4 Archery units and some heroes?) to do it with being fully promoted up the line deserve doing so. Given what a highly promoted unit (7 + Promotions) from a non-archery branch can do.

Finally the archery-line has its uses and players start to complain (not that its very surprising given how often players cry for nerf this! and nerf that! here. )

Has anyone here ever! witnessed this to be actually a bigger! deal than Chalid / Druids / Archmages with offensive / defensive magic in their current slightly nerfed form (which most of the time come into play at a similar time or even earlier at a comparable cost and with comparable limitations in number.) in an actual game he played?

Everything is slightly overpowered here and its fine that way imo (only a real problem if it downright drowns the other options.). Given my experience in game i can hardly spot anything horrible in terms of endangering balance.
Also Blitz for Archery-Units (2 moves is the usual max. 3 is very rare. More than 3 is nearly unseen.) is not so powerful on the offensive side of what the promotion allows and defensive strikes don't happen that often and with such a devastating effect with units that don't start with a chance and at least some damage even at Drill 4 in my Experience.
(Also note that relative power plays a role i believe.)

(i have plenty of units with Drill 4 + Blitz (still in the 1-diggit range but often the higher part of that range in a given game.) in my games and it doesn't seem all so terrible since Archers are still rather weak in comparison and their techs expensive (especially the later ones.). I still see few reasons to build them before anything else. But the AI does build those like it always did and is a bit more dangerous now to attack stacks with many fortified longbows like it should be...)

Also for Flurries it sounds very flavorful that they can do so...

I have to exclude Aquebusiers though as i did before defensive strikes were introduced.
Those have always been rather powerful (read: in line with other early Tier 4 units given their tech-cost, benefits from the tech and its requirements as well as usefulness and nonlimitation) and should be brilliant now. Nothing bad about that imo. (Save for the Elves having no access to them or at least a UU replacement. Which seems highly odd in terms of a UU replacement because of them being Recon + Archery centric.) But perhaps the combination might be over the top for them now. Only experience will show that... (and tech-costs are reorganized now. So that has to be tested again. Perhaps the ridiculous cost for both bowyers and precision will be reduced at least a good ammount / a bit respectively.)

 

[Grey Fox]

Though, it sounds like it works for not only Archery units, but all units that have drill promotions and blitz. (Archery units would have higher chance and the Precision and Keen Sight promos). I'm actually starting to grow on the idea of unlimited def-strikes, might not be so bad. A possibility would be to limit it to archers however.

 

[Kenjister]

Disagree with Blitz and unlimited def-strikes being overpowered. Those rare few units that get 100 % to do it with being fully promoted up the line deserve doing so. Given what a highly promoted unit from a non-archery branch can do.

I agree completely with this. I can see how it would be unbalancing a bit on Multiplayer, but no matter how hard this guys hit on the defence, they suck on offense. I had a combat 5 crossbow with all the defensive strike promotions once, and I had to have him sit around while my green t4 troops did the bulk of the fighting.
As for Valin or Rosier getting first strikes, I've never seen it get higher than 10% for those guys, except when facing really low level AI units.