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A game of Monty

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by krikav, Dec 12, 2019.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Started a pair of random games, and found this one with Monty which caught my eye.

    I'm up at T10, have just finished agri and would appreciate some creative ideas how to proceed next, looks like I'm in for alot of idle workerturns.

    Spoiler T0 :

    Settle on marble...? Nah, don't want to walk away from wet wheat for a lone clam.
    How to move scout...?
    I figure SE->SW, would you have done otherwise?
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


    Spoiler T0 - Scout moved :

    Oh... thats alot of desert.
    Would you SiP? Or do you find some other sensible move? (I settled in place.)
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG


    Spoiler T0 -Settled :

    Settlement on marble would likely have been best.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG


    Spoiler T5 tech commit :

    I think Agri is the way to go. Is there something to be said for AH first? There is certainly enough food, and skipping Agri might free up some time later on.
    But I commit to agri...
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG


    Spoiler T10 Overview :


    Agri just finished, overview. Very nice land, abundant food, floodplains and rivers, marble and forest.
    GLib+Natepic in this capital would be sweet.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    But I have more immediate problems to attend to...
    With this large area, barbs will have my head if I don't defend.
    And how to get through this tech bottleneck?

    Mining->BW would leave me with a whole slew of idle workerturns.
    If I go AH, pigs will be pastureable by the time the wheat is done, but after that I might as well delete the worker.

    Going TW feels ridiculus, but that would keep worker busy roading to the natural city#2 spot (I see 2S of western clam, on that plains tile... Which might be a hidden resource though.)

    Not any good unimproved tiles to grow into either, perhaps settler at size2 and run far west for the pig and hills there?
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
     

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  2. Jarno

    Jarno Chieftain

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    Ouch this indeed looks like an awful start requiring so many basic techs, curious to see what choices you will make. I tend to struggle with these as well, as there aren't even any hills to mine whilst going for BW. However, lots of land to settle so at least you can't complain about that! Maybe go 1W of the southern pig for the FPs? Western pig can only be settled 1W to avoid ruining the fish. Eventually 1E2S of the eastern clam would give you some good production. Good luck!
     
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  3. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Re-played to your point (better map feeling :)) and i think AH - wheel makes good sense.
    After pasture you could connect this spot (which might be troubled by barbs thou, maybe you will have to build 2-3 warriors before the settler)
    Spoiler :

    I would try going one further south than Jarno suggested, cos with a monument some hills are cultured and that always helps with natural fogbusting.

    Wheel after AH does not feel ridiculous at all, imo those coastal spots are all not very helpful early,
    and i would aim for fishing + pottery afterwards (nice fp cottages), eventually with Archery before.
    I think while your cap has plenty forests, there cannot be copper and with 2x 6 yield tiles you should be fine without chopping early.
     

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  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Fippy
    One clarification, do you mean Agri->AH->TW? I'm kind of thinking that it was a mistake to go Agri first, perhaps AH->TW would have been better. But thats water under the bridges by now since I have already finished Agri. :)

    As it is, I think that AH->TW gives me 5-7 wasted workerturns? But that might be the best path regardless though.

    I agree on city spot SW of pig, but mostly because I'm a sucker for freshwater and riverside access, and that spot gives 3 floodplains in the first ring.
    Good thing pointing out the natural fogbusting!
     
  5. Anysense

    Anysense King

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    Before BW? Slow build boats then. I suppose its ok with 7 or 9 raw hammers in cap.
     
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  6. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Agri was essential imo, bonus for AH and wet river wheat is just too good ;)
    With the worker moving thru some forests, i think he will only sit around for ~3 turns before he can start roads.

    Workboats are a luxury here imo, Anysense.
    BW before pottery would likely get Krikav stuck in a research hole, and i would be much more worried for barb defense than improving seafood.
    More production always helps ofc, but i think BW is just too expensive here before some good cottages are built.
     
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  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Ok, started the game to check, AH is 11 turns, TW is 9.
    5 Turns left of worker build, then 5 turns for wheat, 1 turns for moving and 4 turns for pasture, then 2 turns moving into a relevant position.
    So, 17 turns relative to 20. Only 3 wasted worker turns, way less than I feared!
     
  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Yeah, workboats before BW feels highly unlikely, all hammers will be needed for warriors I think (or archers).
    But fishing opens up two 2F2C tiles which could be very usefull.

    It would be though, that TW for traderoutes, fishing for unimproved clam tiles and then unimproved floodplains is enough, and that one can squeeze in BW before pottery.
     
  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Will play on now, post again @AH or TW or when something fun happends. :)
     
  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T30 AH->TW. :


    AH is done, there is no horses in sight.
    Pigs will be done soon, so I can trade 3F for 3H and still reach pop3 the same turn. I take this opportunity, as I think hammers rather than food will be the main bottleneck.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG
    15/24, now pigs come online and get me to pop3.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG
    Oh, missed to take a screenshot, but scout went up on that hill blind T11, decided it was worth the risk to get that good fogbusting position.
    Warrior is slowly moving toward the city spot, will risk going up the hill next.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG
    Phew!
    Warrior will now try to hold city spot and fortify.
    Had a barb warrior spawn in the west, always lovely to see warriors taking up space for archers. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG
    Could not reach pop4 and get the warrior out same turn, so I get some overflow instead.
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG
    Sury finds me! Perhaps I should make plans for GLH...? I have marble so masonry is in order, and there is a myriad of forests.
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG
    Another warrior, or possibly the same one who have taken a stroll.
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG
    Sury haven't met any other AI.
    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG
    SH built, not sury. Sury doesn't have any of the religions either.
    Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG
    Had a hard time deciding where to road. 1S of wheat would help movement toward the west later on, but I decided to road the riverside grassland instead. Next I think the grassland hill 2S of capital and then the pig.
    Fishing next, but then I'm less certain.
    I wish I paid attention to demographics to see how many AIs started coastal.
    Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG



     
  11. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    That went well with barbs so far ~~
    Are you comfy without Archery for now?
    An Archer shortly after the settler would be a great safety relief.

    I'd decide against GLH here, with Sailing and BW needed you would start very late.
    Chopping later would be attractive for marble wonders too.
     
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I think you are right regarding GLH, it would have been glorious but trying would all but guarantee a costly failure.

    It's a rather large area south for barbs, and I think archery is likely needed.
    If I had a few hills there would always be the option of spamming out agg warriors as needed, but before BW I feel very much like a sitting duck here.

    Archery->fishing, then either pot->bw or bw->pot is the safe prudent approach I think.

    Land is good so can afford to lose tempo, and an unlucky spawn of a barb spear early could spell catastrophe.
    What would be the alternative...? Fishing right away won't do me any good if I need to work forests to survive.

    BW right away would enable chopping out warriors on demand, that would likely save me the cost of teching archery.
     
  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T45 archery->fishing :


    A barb warrior approaches, but with +25% fortify and agg, I decide to hold my ground.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
    79% chance, good thing I'm not Lain.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    Another warrior in the west, he and the scout dances around for a while.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
    Overflow from settler. I decide that I want another warrior. No happines resources will make it necessery for alot of military police, getting an barracks up would have been sweet, with the intent of farming up a archer to 10xp, but even 25 hammers feel abit to costly right now.
    I'm working what hammers I have available, want to get some production done before I close in on pop6, when I'll be forced to only build workers/settlers.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
    I feel good about going archery now. All of these warriors could have been archers.
    3 warriors and 1 archer defends pretty convincingly here though, nothing is pillaged.
    I even take it super defensively and stack a warrior in with the archer+worker, as to not lose worker to an unlucky roll.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
    Archer got severely vounded, good thing that only warriors continue to attack.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
    Had to check that I had the right difficulty on, with no archers appearing, but things seem to be in order.
    Not that I'm complaining! :D
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG
    Fishing is done, 4 turn settler with forests.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG
    5 turns with clams. I opt for the clams, new city will be placed to unload the wheat from the capital.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG
    Pottery now feels best, as BW also need to go through mining.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG




     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  14. Anysense

    Anysense King

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    Why did not you use scout for fogbusting in the south? Scouts are ideal for open areas. Then a warrior could move in safely.
     
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  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Not enough to fogbust the south imho, I need to be able to defend. Scout does a good job keeping that entire front safe so I can focus soley on south.
     
  16. Anysense

    Anysense King

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    I thought of replacing him with a warrior. I had to much experience with unsafe warrior movements. For some reason whenever I move a warrior on an unforested tile there is always an archer or a bear waiting for him.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
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  17. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    How about wheat unload city 2s of your spot?
    Adds river tiles instead of clams, with going pottery next i would prefer those :)
     
  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    The entire path of the warrior was safe though, except for the leap of faith when moving up on the pig-hill, where there was one tile fogged.
    I agree though, that warriors moving blindly down on flatland are sitting ducks.
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Yes, thats a better location! Happy cap limits how many of those floodplains the pigcity can work, and the city spot you mention will benefit from reaching two of the floodplains and that also utilizes pig-citys monument.
    That places abit more demand on workers though so need to get a bunch out.
     
  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T50 Barb troubles. :

    Pre-roaded so I could settle the same turn the settler was done, but I'm not sure it's safe enough to do so.
    Capital has to work clam one turn to get pottery next turn, but shifting to a forest next turn ensures another archer T52

    Sacrifice scout?
    Move archer and pig-citys warrior to the grassland between pig and city#3, and place one road there? Then I could finish the road and reinforce the city that need help the most.

    If I settle this turn, I'll get pottery next turn anyway (which isn't crucial if I'm busy making a road).
    Could afford to move out capitals warrior and endure the unhappines for the extra support.

    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

     

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