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A general strategy for Portugal

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by megabearsfan, Mar 12, 2014.

  1. megabearsfan

    megabearsfan Chieftain

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    Continuing my series of Civ V BNW strategies, I have just published a guide for Portugal. Please check it out at:
    http://www.megabearsfan.net/post/2014/03/12/Civ-V-Portugal-strategy.aspx

    As always, I appreciate any feedback, so please comment, share, or rate the post as you see fit. I also welcome any discussion about the strategy guide or Portuguese strategies in general in this forum topic.

    This is my sixth strategy post. The first five are:
    Assyria the tech thief
    Brazil the jungle king
    spicy Indonesia
    Moroccan gatekeepers
    Poland the progressive warhorse

    I will also be posting a similar thread on the official 2k forums.
     
  2. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    You might consider a 2 or 3 city coastal tall setup which either uses Oxford for Astronomy or for Navigation to get that exploration going that much faster.

    A Great Library + Oracle combo will produce a Great Scientist.

    Once the UU is unlocked, why not chain produce them for a fat 300 gold every 1 or 2 turns?
    After the cargo is delivered, they can be deleted or lent to a CS for influence points.

    Patronage could be a really good tree, even with Fietora.
     
  3. megabearsfan

    megabearsfan Chieftain

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    Ah yes, excellent point about Oxford. I can't believe I forgot to mention that! Added it.
     
  4. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    For a standard size map, I would like to know how many tiles away I have to move to get the most gold for my UU.
     
  5. megabearsfan

    megabearsfan Chieftain

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    There wouldn't necessarily be a single answer to that, as it would depend on the location of your capital and the shapes of the landmasses and general locations of civs and city states. As a frame of reference, the furthest possible distance should be (I think) a straight line between any one of the four "corners" of the map and the middle hex on the opposite vertical edge (north or south). Since the map wraps horizontally, this line could be transposed left or right (west or east) to any arbitrary points along the top and bottom (north and south) edges.

    If I have time, I can try doing some experimenting on how the forumula might work and maybe draw up a reference chart. If I do that, I will add it to the strategy post.

    In general, you can use a variation of "Newton's Method" to find the best point:
    1.) Follow foreign civs' borders east or west until the value of the cargo starts to decline.
    2a.) If your capital is in the Northern hemisphere, then travel to the furthest south hex that is in the same approximate horizontal location (longitude?) and is within or adjacent to a foreign civ's territory; otherwise,
    2b.) If your capital is in the Southern hemisphere, then travel to the furthest north hex that is in the same approximate horizontal location (longitude?) and within or adjacent to a foreign civ's territory.
    This should give you a close-to-maximized amount of gold and XP. I think...
     
  6. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    On the Great Library; that's not reliable even at King. An above average hammer start is needed even at King. At Emperor an excellent hammer start is needed. Immortal and above its gone between turns 20 & 25.

    And even then, it sounds like you are advocating building Oracle right away instead of NC. Building NC ultra early is the whole point of building GL; if you would just delay the NC that long anyway, better to just build the boring regular library and use hammers for something else.

    (In addition, I note that Oracle is easy to get even after NC at Emperor level and with a good hammer production can also be built after NC on Immortal)

    The Cargo delivery maxes out at below 300 gold. Cash buying them to sell cargo and then deleting loses money after you add the per turn maintenance costs during travel.

    I suppose I should mention the related slow build their UU just for a cargo delivery and then scrap; simply having a city building Wealth gives a better hammer to gold ratio after the maintenance expenses are added.

    "Lent" to a city state? I think you mean given. Only Austria & Venice can get units given to another city state back. (And even then, only if the city state didn't decide to scrap them) This gives a very bad return for influence compared to other things unless you have both Arsenal of Democracy and the city state has also requested one. It's usually best to send a junk unit type granted by a military city state.
     
  7. SULOMON

    SULOMON Mod Civs Best Civs.

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    You don't delete the Naus. You use them to demand tribute from the city state after you drop off cargo.
     
  8. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    I've played them on a water map; the highest yield I've seen is 270 gold; half way around the world, as close to the far pole as it was possible at the time in that game.

    That is the gross income as I kept mine and eventually promoted them to Destroyers via Ironclads.
     
  9. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Going thru the guide:
    Towards the top there's a reference of suitable for diplomatic victory; not sure I agree with that, your UI means you have much less need to ally with city states than others. (You'll get their luxuries anyway) But I see you anticipated my objection by mentioning it much further down.

    If you're digging up one for the ruins as long as you create an artificat the city state will send it's own worker along to improve the tile. No need for your own worker for that however; since you probably only built one copy of your UI in that city state you need to send your worker to replace it on another tile.

    You might also want to mention that if you later ally with the city state in which you've built your UI with, you'll actually get a second copy of the luxury. (One from being allies and the other from your UI). However, you wouldn't be allowed to sell it anyway. So the only city states you'd want to spend the time allying with are those with strategic resources. (Other than if Austria is in the game you wouldn't want Austria to stay allied for 5 consecutive turns)

    As early as possible : Actually bad advice if taken literally; it takes the AI time to improve its stuff. Your much better off with standard NC as early as possible, but right after that then get the trade routes up and running. Taking them one at a time
    Animal Husbandary: Many starts call for this pre NC, (second most common only to Mining) but not all.
    Sailing : Can almost always wait until after NC. (Only time it can't is if the RNG has given you a sea luxury type as your primary luxury :(

    Herd of workers: Appears to be over stating it because you don't need your UI in every single city state, but only in those with luxury types you don't already have covered. (Remember that you can not sell extra copies of luxuries granted by your UI) Yes, build more than your normal amount of workers though.

    Great Lighthouse: Goes too fast on Immortal (AI in love with the wonder); even on Emperor it appears to carry with it the cost of delaying NC due to not being on the NC path. King is about as high as you can build NC first and still have a shot at getting this wonder.
    (Can be map type specific; if most of the AIs started away from the coast you have a much better shot at this wonder than one in which all but one did)

    I see a reference to no maintenance to the UI. Yes, that is true. However the workers themselves are chewing up maintenance costs, so it's fairly expensive to have a large number of workers doing nothing but building your UI in city states that don't have a unique luxury.

    Commerce: The side of the tree you mentioned is ok, but I wouldn't select the other side.

    Self founding cities so late that Resettlement is available: Still a really bad idea. Happiness isn't the problem. Instead it's that you've just added a city that needs yet another copy of extra single building that you haven't yet built the national wonder for yet. (Which will likely include National Vistor's Center if you are seeking cultural victory and National Intelligence Agency if you are seeking either a diplomatic or cultural victory. You're much better off conquering existing AI cities which will have much higher population, better production, and in which you can choose the timing in which annexing it would be best.

    In reference to luxuries and (AI) Maria not buying them; if you play with legendary map setting, every player starts with a monopoly of one type; each if a major AI pouches one or two of them it's not a type granted to city states so she'll still buy it.
     
  10. megabearsfan

    megabearsfan Chieftain

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    I'm pretty sure I had one that gave me just over 300 gold on a standard map/speed. I want to say it was like 313. Should've taken a screenshot...

    Actually, I was not aware of that!

    Yes, but having more copies frees up your domestic ones for trade deals. I'm pretty sure that having Feitorias in multiple CSs with same luxury will give you multiple copies of that luxury. So if I have 3 Fur, and I build 2 Feitorias in CSs that have Fur, then all 3 of my domestic Furs become available for me to trade away,and I have insurance in case of a coup. It's possible that I was confusing these extra resources with being allied though. I may need to confirm...
     
  11. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    You can indeed get multiple copies from your UI by planting in 2 different city states with the same luxury type. However as I recall, ones from your UI aren't considered domestic and so can't be sold. :(
    A single one of your UI in a city with Fur maxes out your benefit of being able to sell your last domestic copy.
    Nothing to fear from coups with your UI; you only have to fear the following:
    1. Venice buying a city state that has your UI.
    2. Austria marrying a city state that has your UI.
    3. Mongols (or another AI) conquering a city state that has your UI.
     
  12. megabearsfan

    megabearsfan Chieftain

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    We seem to be in violent agreement, LoL.

    If you have the Feitoria in a CS, then that is correct, you do not need to worry about a coup; however, if you are allied (and being given a copy of their lux) then you might still want a Feitoria in case of a coup / conquest. Having Feitorias in other CSs with the same luxuries is just insurance. Don't worry about it if it's inconvenient to build them. I was always generating enough gold that the maintenance costs of Workers was not an issue, so I always went ahead and built Feitorias in all the CS just in case. There was usually enough time between Navigation and Railroad that I had the Workers sitting around anyway, so might as well build Feitorias...
     
  13. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Building a UI for insurance against losing the city state as an ally: Yup, I have done that when I only got it to ally via requests I would have done anyway and didn't fell that I'd spend gold to keep it.

    But I've never sent a worker to another city state that only offered the exact same type that I was getting from my UI in a different city state.
    Disclaimer: Venice was NOT in that game.

    I tend to be very focused on spending gold surpluses by cash buying stuff; I can always use more money even when playing a civ that has a major money advantage.

    (It's probably going to be a while before I get back to playing any of the BNW civs since I've played them all and finished my two Piety experiments; I'm now checking out civs that have changed since release: I'm currently seeing how Carthage has changed from the removal of a hammer from Harbors which she got for free and onto Lighthouses which she has to build like everyone else; Japan & Germany are next two on this list as a result of the fall patch.)
     
  14. megabearsfan

    megabearsfan Chieftain

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    UPDATE:

    A new table has been added to the Portugal strategy's "Nau" section that shows the specific gold and xp values based on distance from capital for all map sizes.

    Thanks to Chichian for creating it.
     
  15. beetle

    beetle Chieftain

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    I am almost certain that Feitorias do not provide the lux benefit if you are at war with the CS (or, much more likely, at war with an AI that has the CS allied). Can anyone verify one or the other?
     
  16. ima

    ima Chieftain

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    I'll have to disagree here, on King it's almost impossible to NOT get the GL if you want to, just beeline writing while building worker (+granary if possible) and you'll finish the GL around turn 42-45 (standard speed), and the IA never gets it that early, I seriously dont know how you can fail it except maybe with a full jungle start. It starts to get tricky on emperor but with a good start or a good Civ it's still very doable. In immortal it's only possible if no AI is trying to get it too soon, and for Deity... I think i've done it once with an amazing start and a miracle.

    As for Portugal itself, sadly i think feitoria's aren't very good, your UA makes you trade-route dependant, which means you can't go too strong on war and you'll usually want to get public school and factories before navigation, so when you reach the point where feitoria are unlocked, you usually generates enough gold to start buying CS. Their best use is usually indeed securing some happiness in case of a coup or if you're too low on money to afford buying more than 2 or 3 CS.
     
  17. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    rushing GLib is a bad plan IMO because settling cities is a better idea. Which is why I suppose it's only good for up to Emperor/King (where you have until around T50 on standard) and/or OCC.

    I didn't really play with Portugal much but if you can only build the UI on coastal tiles (hopefully the city state itself is not coastal) then it's a severe gimp to its usefulness. The not being able to tear it down except on a dig site seems more like a programming oversight. A really unpleasant downside of that would be if an AI pillages your Feitoria by accident, you have had good relations with them but no, you're at war now because of a gimmicky game mechanic.

    I don't really agree about the worker herd bit, as it's quite general actually, you should have a worker per city regardless of your civ, and the trade routes take a bit long to develop, what with exploration and various boosts and whatnot to kick in so rushing out your first cargo is more useful to feed back the cap anyway. The trade route will be really good only a bit later, so, they will have a really strong midgame I suppose.

    For naval domination Frigates are the name of the game still, again, not much different than a page out of the standard playbook.
     
  18. beetle

    beetle Chieftain

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    The UI does not have to be coastal, but the CS does for the UI to be an option. So it is probably not an option for every CS, and maybe worse than you describe! The Plus maps would be good for this though. As I recall with the Portugal DCL, only two CS were not coastal.

    There really isn't much pillage of the UI either, and none of the accidently-go-to-war mechanic the article hints. The CS will not replace your UI unless you build it on top of a late-revealed strategic resource (like oil or coal). No real harm to the CS for your Feitoria either. So they get a fort instead a mine or a farm or a TP. Yes, they lose a couple yields on a weak tile -- not a big deal like the article implies.

    A caravel with one extra move as your only UU is terrible though. So no buffs for fighting at all. Worse UU out of all 43, I would say. Even worse that the Korean Turtle ship I think -- which is also terrible -- but at least has a high combat strength. I guess the extra move is good for the main role Caravels have, unfogging the map, but at the cost of never having an advantage in fight?
     
  19. Sclb

    Sclb Chieftain

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    I was pretty sure the UI has to be built on a coastal tile without resource, but the CS doesn't need to be coastal. It can be difficult to get the worker on CS territory due to CS having many units on deity.
     
  20. beetle

    beetle Chieftain

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    That is correct, my apologies. If you start on the Feitorias early, CS unit spam is not too much of a problem. For my last couple of Deity Portugal games, including multiple play-throughs of the DCL, that was mostly not a problem for me. I would build pairs of them too (just because the worker was there already, and I having oil or coal spawn underneath is a PITA to fix later).

    So, can anyone comment if Feitorias work when you are at war with the CS?
     

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