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A general strategy for Venice

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by megabearsfan, May 15, 2014.

  1. megabearsfan

    megabearsfan Prince

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    Continuing my series of Civ V BNW strategies, I have just published a guide for Venice. Please check it out at:
    http://www.megabearsfan.net/post/2014/05/15/Civ-V-Venice-strategy.aspx

    This one took a little bit longer than usual (and is a bit longer in length). I had to test a lot of different play-styles and specific situations due to the unique nature of Venice. I hope this guide proves useful!

    As always, I appreciate any feedback, so please comment, share, or rate the post as you see fit. I also welcome any discussion about the strategy guide or Venetian strategies in general in this forum topic.

    This is my eighth strategy post. The first six are:
    Assyria the tech thief
    Brazil the jungle king
    spicy Indonesia
    Moroccan gatekeepers
    Poland the progressive warhorse
    Portual borrows luxuries
    Land-snatching Shoshone


    I will also be posting a similar thread on the official 2k forums.
     
  2. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Nice job. it makes me want to play another game as Venice, but I have to go to work today.

    One thing you mentioned, but I don't think ever gets stressed enough in these Venice strategy discussions is how to develop the CS after you acquire them. You certainly can send food back to them via trade units and this will allow them to grow big enough to work all those specialist slots including scientists which you can buy for them with all your gold. I have had games where Venice was size 30 and my first two puppets were each size 20. I have grown Venice out to as many as 10 CS puppets before as well.

    The UU can be useful especially if there is an AI cap next to you on the coast. You will want that tech fairly soon and at that point in the game, you can build and buy a force easy enough.

    Whish CS do you choose to puppet? Does one type have any advantage over the others? If you grab some maritimes mid game, they are likely to have several ships out a sea scouting. This can be a big map reveal for you. I'm not sure if that was mentioned.

    How much gold is too much gold? How much should you be making at t100, t150, t200? What do you do with all of it? Should you focus only on sea trade or use some camels? How does choosing where to send your trade routes effect your game strategy?
     
  3. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Same for me, a nice guide - although I didn't really learn anything new. ^^ Spent the last hours playing as Venice, Huge map, 22 Civs, 32 City States - now I'm in the Industrial Era, with 600gpt. The whole world is is a :c5razing: slaughterhouse, because I literally spent the last 4000 years bribing as many nations into war with each other as I could afford, there's almost no Civ that has not been denounced by at least 10 other Civs (Venice being the exception, 2 Denunciations) and considering that I disabled all Victory Conditions except for Domination Victory, the bloodbath is not going to stop anytime soon. And once I can finally invest in some personal Autocracy, I'll finally have some fun myself. :>
     
  4. edunavas

    edunavas Chieftain

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    This must be fun!
     
  5. Calouste

    Calouste Deity

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    Puppets have a pretty low priority on running scientist (or I should say specialists other than Merchants). I have seen them do it, but only after almost anything else of value was already being worked.

    For puppeting CS, the main requirement is that they are in range of a cargo ship to Venice so you can run a food trade route from them. Second is a luxury you don't have yet or a Natural Wonder (both must already be within their borders, border expansion after you puppet them is glacial). Third would be to pick them in order of their decreasing value as an ally: Mercantile, Maritime, Military, Religious, Cultural. You can puppet all Mercantile city states except two, because they can only have two different special luxuries (Porcelain and Jewelry), so allying more than two of them doesn't give you full benefits. As opposed to allying the other types of city states, where each additional one will provide you with the full benefits of their type.
     
  6. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Well done; I'm in agreement with most of it.

    Note that Great Merchants share the same counter as Great Scientists & Great Enginners. (e.g. Going Collective rule would also increase cost of a GS in addition to the next GMOV.)

    Another situation to delay buying a city state : A natural wonder is just outside the cultural boundary (but within workable distance). A puppet gets a major cultural reduction slowing down acquisition, so you may want to want for the city state to naturally acquire it before buying.

    Looks like you touched on having first city state you bought out form a food cargo ship route. Yes, extremely useful, and I'd do that for at least the next 2 city states as well to get Venice to grow extremely tall.

    However I would skip the Carivansary and caravans in favor of a Harbor and Cargo ships. 2X as much gold even if destination coastal city is on the same land mass.

    I find I get plenty of Great Merchants of Venice as is; no need for faith bought ones (or left side commerce) to get even more; the puppets will generate plenty. In fact, it's sometimes difficult as Venice to get Great Scientists & Great Engineers.

    Also fairly difficult for Venice to defend its religion (outside of Venice) since its cities are spread out.
     
  7. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    there a few important social policies I think worth mentioning for Venice:

    - treasure fleets
    - merchant confederacy
    - treaty organization (freedom tenet)

    if you get these 3 policies its pretty much impossible to lose a diplo game. MC isn't even necessary but treasure fleets and treaty org are both very powerful.
     
  8. megabearsfan

    megabearsfan Prince

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    Thanks for the feedback everyone! I'll review the strategy post this weekend, and see if there are any places where I can include some of your suggestions.

    This is a good point. I'll look through the post and see if there are places where I could elaborate on this a little bit more. The point of the puppets is that they kind of run themselves, but chosing what buildings to buy is pretty important (especially later in the game). I'll think back to what my purchase priorities were and try to update the strategy.

    True, but this is a very specific case. In general, I think the UU is kinda crap.

    This is very dependent on victory plans, map, circumstances, etc. Allying with cultural CSs is generally the most valuable, since culture generation can be a challenge with Venice. That's a good point about the Maritime CSs though.

    Is there such a thing as "too much gold" in Civ V?

    The actual amount of gold that you earn will probably depend on how many CSs you buy early, and therefore how many routes you devote to internal shipping rather than international trade.

    Sea routes are strictly superior once your capital has enough production to build them quickly. An extra 2 or 3 turns of production time is well worth having double trade income, food, or production! Of course, how many sea routes you can have is dependent on the map and other conditions.

    I recommended the Carivansary mostly in the cases where your sea routes can't reach any new trade partners.

    This is a good point, but the double influence and gold from MoV means you can't really have too much of them. CS allies are valuable in all victory conditions. If you go for a faith build, you can use faith to buy MoV (which does not increase cost of great people, as far as I could tell), don't assign merchant specialists, and then allow your scientists and engineers to spawn naturally. I never tried this, so I didn't think to include it in the strategy, but it could work.

    Treaty Organization is good, but I generally found that Treaty Organization was never necessary. By the time I had ideologies, I was allied with pretty much all the CSs and had a steady enough stream of MoVs that anytime someone unseated me, I could just spend an MoV and/or buy them back.
     
  9. Calouste

    Calouste Deity

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    I've never found Cultural Victory to be much of a problem with Venice. Spam Wonders while buying your buildings, pass Cultural Heritage Sites with the help of your city state allies, and race to the Internet. Regarding World Projects, your puppets will start work on them when they have finished what they are building, and you can always get them to finish what they are building by buying it.
     
  10. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    on what difficulty? above emperor its hard to beat the AI to the good wonders with only 1 city worth of science
     
  11. Calouste

    Calouste Deity

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    Emperor/Immortal. With Cultural Heritage Sites you don't need good wonders, you just need wonders. It's not that hard to stay close to the AI in tech until fairly late in the game considering all the beakers you pull in from trade routes and your massive capital, and because of Venice's size and hammer trade routes, it can build wonders faster than anyone once it gets the tech.
     
  12. megabearsfan

    megabearsfan Prince

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    I have added the following passage to the "Humble Beginnings: Getting Started with Venice" section:

    What do you think? Any other important aspects of managing puppets that you think are worth mentioning?
     
  13. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Can Venice faith purchase pagodas, cathedrals, Jesuit universities in puppets?
     
  14. megabearsfan

    megabearsfan Prince

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    Yes, they can.
     
  15. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    I've played multiple times as Venice; even if you fire all merchants from Venice itself; your puppets will normally work all merchant spots and the ones that have been in your empire the longest will rack up a ton of Great Merchant points. It basically amounts to over half your puppets will at some point produce a Great Merchant and your Optics one may even produce a second one. Since each and every great merchant slows down Great Scientists and Engineers; if you really wanted a GS late in the game, it's a long delay. (What you really need to get either a GE or GS in a reasonable time-frame is to faith buy those instead.)
     
  16. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Indeed and in the first two cases it's a bonus if you can snag those as both your follower beliefs as you won't have to worry about defending that city from AI's great prophets after you've build both of those.
    (But in order to get that kind of faith as Venice you'd need a nearby city state on top of a faith natural wonder.)
     
  17. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Be sure to Cash rush science buildings as Venice when your puppets are tardy building them. Even with the 25% hair cut and puppets refusing to run science specalists they still help a lot.

    Building world wonders on Immortal though also requires that Venice be fairly big. It's actually not that unreasonable as Venice to have 4 Internal Cargo ships headed to Venice after you have 4 puppets, with 2 or 3 of them providing food and the remaining 1 or 2 providing hammers depending upon local terrain.
    And if you choose Tradition, you'll also get these benefits:
    1. A massive food bonus in Venice
    2. World wonder production increase.
    3. Starting in Industrial era, ability to faith buy some GE.
     
  18. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    I understand how growing Venice as much as possible is key, using food cargo ships and all that. And on emperor, it's no problem to get all the Ren. wonders you need for culture victory. But when I've tried on immortal+, the AI beats me to printing press every time. No matter how big you grow Venice, its science output still doesn't compare to a 4 city with universities setup.

    I haven't tried the cultural heritage sites approach though. That is an interesting idea.
     
  19. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    If Venice can faith purchase in puppets, I actually see Venice going wide, and more faith-based than money-based. The money is a means to an end: allying with faith and militaristic CS. I tend to play on high CS map settings. The faith buildings pay for themselves in time. You don't even have to grab the beliefs first: just buy missionaries of other religions in your puppets.

    I hope to get to playing Venice soon. Doggone real life...
     
  20. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Yeah, Printing Press World wonders are iffy as Venice on Immortal. You have a somewhat better shot at Uffizini or PT.
    And you should be able to beat the AI to both Eiffel Tower & Broadway by a country mile by using Oxford for ultra early entry to Radio.

    But it turns out you don't actually have to build the world wonders with theming bonuses to win a cultural victory even as Venice. Hermitage + Oxford + Hotel + Airport + National Visitor Center + Internet + the tourism bonuses from your chosen ideology will do.
     

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