1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

A Global Manifesto as crafted by Occupy++

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by White Elk, May 11, 2012.

  1. White Elk

    White Elk 99 > 1

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,126
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    It should hit the media today: a Global Manifesto, presented "by local Occupy press teams around the world". A clear set of demands crafted by an international organization, of local social movements, including but not limited to Occupy.

    This document will get trolled heavy on the net. I hope people read it with open mind and heart. Look to the truths before discarding the whole as utopian pipe dreams. There is truth here. And know that these ideals will set free the free market, such that capitalism and democracy will flourish unlike the world has ever seen. This is not "attack of the socialist anarchist neo-hippy drop outs". This is Global Solidarity! This is human. This is for real. And it is happening now.


    The Manifesto preceded by history of the documents crafting:
    http://interoccupy.org/please-help-...national-occupy-statement-to-media-in-the-us/

    A direct link to the document:
    http://www.peoplesassemblies.org/2012/05/may-12th-globalmay-statement/
    .
     
  2. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12,518
    Location:
    Osaka
    Hear, hear. Weregild4lyfe.
     
  3. Integral

    Integral Can't you hear it?

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    4,021
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    That list is adorable.

    Edit: substantively:
    There isn't a single mention in the whole article of trade policy or immigration. For a group that supposedly cares about the poor, they seem to be doing a mighty fine job of targeting upper-middle-income individuals in rich countries.
     
  4. Grimz101

    Grimz101 King

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messages:
    972
    Location:
    London, England
    Considering the occupy movement had members from every side of the political spectrum, I'm surprised they even managed to come up with a "global" manifesto in the first place.
    The list is cute though, I wonder if most of the occupy members still believe in Santa :lol:?
     
  5. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,496
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    I liked Occupy more when its agenda was focused.
     
  6. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,023
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worthing, Southern England
    Did you bother to read it before pouring scorn on it?

    "We condemn the current distribution of economic resources whereby only a tiny minority escape poverty and insecurity."

    "an ideology at the service of financial power, seeking to impose measures that stifle billions of people, without asking their opinion."

    "Every human being should have access to an adequate income for their livelihood"

    "Rich governments cannot have more votes because they are rich. International Institutions must be controlled by the principle that each human is equal to all other humans – African, Argentinian or American; Greek or German."

    "radical reform and democratisation of the global trading system and the World Trade Organization must take place. Commercialization of life and resources, as well as wage and trade dumping between countries must stop."
     
  7. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    33,262
    Location:
    Perth,Western Australia
    I like this reply from the link.
    There is nothing new in the document that various governments have tried and failed to deliver. Some are just so outrageous that they are not workable.
     
  8. Patroklos

    Patroklos Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    12,721
    Summary:

    "GRRRR, I am angry, oh and I want money too but for no particular reason, GRRRR"
     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,496
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    Summary: "I don't want to address their legitimate criticism so I caricature their demands to distract" :rolleyes:
     
  10. Integral

    Integral Can't you hear it?

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    4,021
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    @brennan

    The five bullet points you mention are, to put it kindly, cheap talk (with the notable exception of #4, which I admire for being actionable). If they wanted to show solidarity with the other 80% - the 80% of the world that isn't in the G20 -- they could have made proposals on trade and immigration that were at least as specific as their proposals on universal healthcare, universal higher education, universal pensions, and universal child care. Something as simple as a single bullet point demanding the abolishment of trade barriers or relaxation immigration controls would have been enough. No, vague rants about the international financial elite don't count.

    They find room to make "separation of commercial and investment banking" one of their main bullet points, and also reference the wealth-weighted apportionment of votes in the IMF, so don't tell me that trade and immigration policy are too technical for a manifesto. But I forgot; free trade and open borders aren't on the agenda. Free child care is.

    The manifesto makes relatively specific demands for pensions, healthcare, education and child care. These are squarely directed at rich countries, because poor countries simply cannot afford those luxuries. They rail on the international financial system, the WTO and IMF, because those are easy targets; yet they don't make even the simple demands to reduce immigration barriers or eliminate farm subsidies. Their choice of demands, and their choice of which demands to make specific and which general, tells me a lot about their relative concern for rich and poor nations.

    The Manifesto is aimed squarely at the 99% of the 20%. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I certainly think it's disingenuous to call it "global".

    (The child care thing really rankles. I'll get over it. It smacks of "everybody ought to get a free iPad!" There are so many bigger issues facing the world right now.)

    --

    Critiquing the manifesto line-by-line is proving to be exhausting, time-consuming and not particularly enlightening. I see a few gems in the list, in the same way that a broken clock is still right twice per day. I can't on the whole endorse it, and am becoming quite disillusioned with the movement's direction.

    But I doubt I was their target audience in the first place. ;)

    Back to dynamic game theory...
     
  11. kramerfan86

    kramerfan86 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    3,572
    Some nice sentiment, but at its core utterly naive and ignores hundreds of years of history.
     
  12. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,677
    You're building strawman to attack them. There is no world government, therefore it's pointless to make a proposals applying to people on countries where there is no influence by this "movement". They're targeting their own governments, and that is politically correct, for those are the only ones they can hope to influence. The only thing with an international impact they're calling on is a reduction on the voting rights of those rich countries in come international institutions: that is something they are able to call for, for it is about their own governments giving up something, not about imposing policy on others.

    Furthermore, there is no evidence whatsoever that the simple abolishment of trade barriers is in the best interests of poorer countries. The opposite is more likely true: developing countries need tools to selectively encourage some economic activities. It would not be correct to deman of the governments of rich countries that they imposed (through use military and economic might?) on the rest of the world such an abolition of trade barriers. In fact accusations have been made that rich countries have pretty much been doing that in order to better control the resources of those poorer countries, against the interests of their populations!

    As for "open borders" in the "rich world", you know that is not doable, and implemented in a limited way it serves mainly the purpose of depressing the negotiating power of the poorer classes in those wealthier countries. Obviously they're not calling for it. And you should not call for it either, because wherever it is done in a crisis context you will get the results the greeks (for example) are seeing: the rise of neo-nazi parties.

    So, you're criticizing them for... being realistic in defending the interests of the vast majority of the population of the countries they're operating in?


    The world is made up of different regions, organized into different countries, and requiring different policies. Duh! Any other complaint?

    Reduce immigration barriers - I already addressed that. Eliminate farm subsidies: are you aware at all that agricultural productivity in the rich world is still much higher that that of the poorer world? That in a world without any trade barriers what little farming exists in Africa would absolutely be crushed, with the exception of extremely large farms, probably owners by foreign corporations, used for the cultivation of a few select cash crops? Independent farmers, who make up a large portion of the population, would absolutely be crushed. Some countries in South America, which are already relatively rich, might benefit vis-a-vis Europe and the USA. The rest of the world, especially the poorer countries, would lose, badly, by losing the ability of regulating trade that some of them use to control their own equilibrium between local food production and price (through cheaper imports).
    And we can open a thread specifically about this issue (agriculture across the world) if you want!

    This manifesto doesn't try to score any points with cheap shots at such a complex issue as agricultural policy? Good for them, they should be praised for that!
     
  13. Oruc

    Oruc Reactionary

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2002
    Messages:
    8,655
    Location:
    It's like I'm really in Revleft
    They would have more support if they just targeted the banks.
     
  14. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    20,544
    I agree with your general points. I just want to point out that 66% of the world belongs to the G20. If we accept that all people should have equal political power, that's what matters. I find the notion that say Tuvalu should have the same weight as China or India in international negotiations laughable.
     
  15. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    4,804
    Location:
    England
    So do I; and I cannot find any sentence in the manifesto that implies that!
     
  16. Gatsby

    Gatsby King

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    655
    A well-meaning document, but it contains a number of 'gimmes' and contradictory demands, e.g. demanding a universal basic income and free universal healthcare while simultaneously demanding a massive transition towards renewables and taxation that seems to penalize people specifically for being economically productive.

    The demands for "fully democratic" political systems are naive, because they are based on the assumption that more democracy is always better. The creators of this Statement don't appear to be aware that political systems face a trade-off between the degree of democracy/diffusion of power and the ability to actually get anything done. I also get the sense that, like many others across the political spectrum, what they really mean by "democracy" is "the things that I want and like." Overall I get the impression that the GlobalMay Statement was written by sanctimonious green-left university students.
     
  17. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2004
    Messages:
    13,024
    Location:
    Closer than you'd like
    It's inappropriate, and in fact dangerous to human freedom, for the Occupy movement to be listing "demands". Doesn't matter what those demands are, and in fact I didn't even bother to read the links. The links are unimportant. In a free nation, political change MUST NOT EVER take the form of unilateral demands issued by shouting demonstrators waving signs. That method is only useful in dealing with oppressive totalitarian governments such as that in Iran. In free nations, political change MUST BE the sole prerogative of voters cloaked in the anonymous safety of the voting booth--where the demonstrators can't scare the voters or take revenge on people who vote "the wrong way".
     
  18. Gatsby

    Gatsby King

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    655
    Would this rule also apply to Tea Party demonstrators and hate-spewing "news" pundits?
     
  19. amadeus

    amadeus The Choice of a New Generation

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    35,259
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Osaka (大阪)
    I'm glad these kinds of things are published; it makes it easier to dissuade people from supporting these kinds of movements.

    Just look at that sentence. It's total economic illiteracy, yet it was written and approved probably by a committee of people with college degrees.
     
  20. AlpsStranger

    AlpsStranger Jump jump on the tiger!

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    5,820
    I'm a pretty big hellbound lefty commie bastard but... a lot of this stuff is ludicrous.

    I particularly dislike:

    Protip: People are actually too dumb for this to be a good idea.

    Also:

    Complete crap. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with being rich.

    This is dumb. I'm for a lot of really left wing things, including single payer, but :crazyeye:

    I don't even... what? :crazyeye:

    On the other hand, I do like a few things. Still, the stupid bleating dumb**** parts of it drown out the few good parts.

    This makes me a little nervous. If they mean homosexuals and transsexuals then I agree, but written the way it is one could easily accuse them of referring to pedophiles.

    Also, how do you reconcile
    and
    if you are a gay couple in Texas?
     

Share This Page