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A guide to Stability.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by Harrier, Jun 17, 2007.

  1. Harrier

    Harrier Chieftain

    Joined:
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    EDIT.

    The fourth and final part is now posted on the second page, post number 33.
    Enjoy.


    STABILITY in Rhyes and Fall of Civilization..

    What is stability?

    Stability plays a very important role in RFC. Nearly everthing you do effects the stability of your civilization.

    - The number of cities you build, there location and the buildings you construct.
    - The mood of your citizens.
    - The technologies you research.
    - The civics and religions you adopt.
    - Your economy, taking into account the population, agriculture, Industry and financial aspects.
    - Your relations and contacts with other civs.
    - The wars you fight.

    Plus many other factors.

    What impact does this have on the game?

    Well a very big one.

    You can not play RFC like regular Civ or Warlords. If you do you will soon be seeing you empire collapsing around your feet and your citizens clamouring to join other civilizations.

    So what can we do about it?

    Well if we know what factors effect stability we can plan our gameplay accordingly. The thing to remember though is that stability improvements occur overtime - not instantaneously. So do not wait until you have stability problems before acting, as you probably will be to late.

    What is my stability when I start a new game?

    There are three levels of gameplay. When you start a new game the stability value is set as follows:

    Viceroy = Solid.
    Monarch = Stable.
    Emperor = Shaky.

    How is stability calculated?

    This is the complicated bit.

    The game uses two methods to calculate stability, which when added together give your actual total stability.

    These two methods are base stability and stability.

    Base stability is calculated every turn on certain factors and is the main indicator of your actual stability. This value is not accumulated but is added to the permanent values each turn. The reason for this is that you can change your actions and thus cancel or reverse a previous effect.

    Some base stability factors are calculated every 3 turns - so as not to slow down game play.

    Stability adds some permanent modifiers, triggered once as certain events happen. These values are applied only once and are accumulated.

    Each calculation (of which there are many) can produce either a zero or positive or negative value depending upon what you are doing.

    Total stability is what you see in the game. This total stability is the sum of base stability and stability.

    So at the start of each turn we have a total stability value which can be either positive or negative.


    What is our total stability and where is it shown?


    As these values are not displayed in the game, I shall refrain from using numbers where possible. But there are three ranges for positive values and three ranges for negative values.

    Positive values are displayed as: Very solid, Solid and Stable.
    Negative values are displayed as: Shaky, Unstable and Collapsing.

    This stability is displayed in two ways.

    On the main screen in the score list, next to each civ you will see one of three icons

    (o) (in a bowl) represents: . .Very solid and Solid.

    _o_ (flat surface) represents: Stable and Shaky.

    o
    ( ) (on top of an upturned bowl) represents: Unstable and Collapsing.

    Do not worry, the actual icons look much better.





    Press F2 or click on the '$' Icon to enter the renamed Interior Advisor Screen (was Financial Advisor).



    Near the bottom of the screen you will see the Stabilty level which will have one of the following descriptions :

    Very solid, Solid, Stable, Shaky, Unstable or Collapsing.

    Under the description are five categories:

    Cities, Civics, Economy, Expansion and Foreign.

    Each category has a star rating from one to five. The stars show the stability of your civilization under each category. So at a glance you can see what part of your empire needs attention.

    Each rating roughly equates to:

    ***** = Very solid,

    **** = Solid

    *** = Stable or Shaky

    ** = Unstable

    * = Collapsing

    Because some categories have lots more factors influencing stability than others it is not safe to assume that 3 stars in one category equates to the same numeric stability values as the other 3 star entries. THEY DO NOT.

    So now we know what our stability rating is and what parts of our civilization are causing it.

    So what can happen?

    Well, you or the AI can lose a city or cities or all of your empire (except for one city if the human player).

    Stable or above civs are safe. (Note: Not sure what happens when a new Civ is born - e.g. France German etc.)

    Shaky civs are only at risk of losing cities when new or resurrecting civs spawn.

    Unstable civs are in danger of secessions. From time to time, unhappy cities will declare independence.

    Collapsing civs risk to end up in civil war. When this happens, the AI collapses and it is split into independent states and barbarians. Neighbouring civs can absorb some cities.

    The human player retains one city, usually the capital, from which he can take the others back.

    There is a warning before secessions and resurrection of civs.


    What can we do?

    The next thing is, what do we do about it.

    Well that is for the future.

    I intend to put together notes covering each category plus any other general factors I come across. They wont be to detailed (we do not want spoilers ruining the game) and I shall try to refrain from using numbers - just pluses and minuses. Because Rhye is bound to change values as he ruthlessly tracks down human exploits and lays traps for the unwary player.

    Credits will be given to any existing posts I use as I use them.

    Guess I should credit Rhye at this point.

    PS. Please comment and correct any errors I have made and I will update the post accordingly.
     
  2. Harrier

    Harrier Chieftain

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    Here is Part 2. Includes changes in v197.5 and c1.475W.

    Where I explain some more of the mechanics of stability before looking at what WE have to do in gameplay terms.

    Stability Calculations

    When is stability calculated?

    Note: When showing stability changes
    +/- equals a positive or negative value between 1 and 9.
    ++/-- a value greater than 9.


    Permanent Stability

    When you start a new game the permanent stability value is set as follows:

    Viceroy = Solid.
    Monarch = Stable.
    Emperor = Shaky.

    This can be increased or decreased every turn depending upon events that have taken place:

    GNP changes +/- (see Demographics screen)
    high combat loss -
    Anarchy -
    Cities built,occupied, traded,razed or lost +/-
    Granting Independence - (BtS only)
    Tech just researched (see below)* +/-
    Certain Buildings built +
    Palace moved --
    Wonders built +
    Projects built (not SS parts) +
    Religion founded -
    Corporation founded - (BtS only)
    At war with rival religous civ. -


    Every so often in the game the permanent stability value is checked and adjusted if too high or too low. This is to stop the runaway or dommino effect. Not just for you, but the AI also.

    * Every new Tech has a + or - stability value based on its historical effect on society.

    Basically the '+' techs are those that were historically beneficial in some way: Religion, Rule of Law, Education, Entertainment, Commerce, Production and Food provision amongst others.

    The '-' Techs are those that historically had some negative effects on society: military units, new forms of government or polluting Industrial features etc.

    So bee-lining for all the military techs and ignoring other techs, will give you long term problems.

    Incase anyone notices later - these tech adjustments do not effect the categories shown in the F2 screen.


    Base Stability

    This is calculated in two parts - somethings every turn, others every three turns.

    Calculated every turn are:

    Great Depression --
    Techs researched and Civics being used --
    Number of cities -/--
    Current combat results -/+ or --/++ (depending on all the battles)
    Anarchy --
    Golden Age ++


    Some additional calculates are performed every third turn:

    Every defensive pact ++
    Every open border +
    Unstable neighbour when your stable -
    Having a vassal +/++
    Historic Civ Size** (see below) --
    Civics selected ++/-- (most are +/-)
    Citizens moods --
    Foreign Culture -
    Economics, Industry, Agriculture and Population ++/--
    Happiness ++
    Number of civ contacts +/- (NEW)


    ** There are also checks based on historic expansion. So a civ that never became large in real life will get penalties if it expands to much. Also a civ that was historicaly large will get penalties if it does not expand enough.

    At the end of all these calculations, permanent and base stability are added together and if your not stable a check is made to see if any cities are lost.

    So we now know how stability is calculated. A lot of things as you can see. So do not expect to master stability quickly.


    The stability categories.

    We will now look at the 5 stability categories and which of the above actions effects each. Then we will get to the important bit - what can we do to change stability.

    Press F2 or click on the '$' Icon to enter the renamed Interior Advisor Screen (was Financial Advisor).

    Under the stability description are five categories:

    Cities, Civics, Economy, Expansion and Foreign.

    Each category has a star rating from one to five. The stars show the stability of your civilization under each category. So at a glance you can see what part of your empire needs attention.

    So what effects each category?

    Let us look at each in turn. Using the events listed above.

    Note: a P indicates permanent change.

    Cities

    Citizens moods --
    Foreign Culture -
    Happiness ++
    Certain Buildings built + P
    Palace moved -- P
    Wonders built + P
    Projects built (not SS parts) + P
    Religion founded - P
    Corporation founded - P (BtS only)
    At war with rival religous civ. - P


    Civics

    Civics selected ++/-- (most are +/-)
    Techs researched and Civics being used --
    Anarchy - P/ --



    Economy

    Economics, Industry, Agriculture and Population ++/--
    GNP changes +/- P
    Great Depression --
    Techs researched and Civics being used --
    Golden Age ++

    Expansion

    Historic Civ Size --
    Number of cities -/--
    Current combat results -/+ or --/++ (depending on all the battles)
    Cities built,occupied, traded,razed or lost +/- P
    Granting Independence - P (BtS only)


    Foreign

    Every defensive pact ++
    Every open border +
    Unstable neighbour when your stable -
    Having a vassal +/++
    high combat loss - P
    Cities traded +/- P
    Number of civ contacts +/-
    Granting Independence - P (BtS only)



    Note: If an event is listed twice, it does not mean it has been calculated twice in the total stability value. It is just that its effects are represented in more than one category.

    Well; now that we know most, if not all the stability factors and what they change. We can start to consider what we have to do ingame.

    That will be the subject of my next post.

    Harrier.

    P.S. I realize some of you are not interested in the mechanics of stability and just want to know what to do to counter it. So it won't be to long now.

    Though understanding the mechanics, rather than just following a pre-written set of actions, like understanding Civ4 concepts, can only help improve gameplay. Besides, writing this helps me understand it.

    Well Rhye, I only hope I have understood what you have written and explained it properly.
     
  3. Harrier

    Harrier Chieftain

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    Here is the third part - this just deals with Civics. A rewrite of other peoples posts with no numbers. I will cover the other categories at a later date. Need to play the latest version now. ;)
    ......................................................................................
    Civics

    Civics play an important role in the stability of your empire: most of them can cause positive or negative modifiers depending on certain conditions.

    Some combinations of civics and events are particularly dangerous, as they may trigger negative modifiers that last more than one turn, such as the Great Depression, a post-communist crisis, or a troubled transition to democracy. All three of them are big hits to your stability.

    Fortunately, there’s a brand new civic column “Expansion” that only affects stability. So, you and the AI have a chance to plan the strengthening of the empire by choosing an appropriate civic.

    The main areas that effect stability are:
    Note: P refers to permanent modifiers.

    Civics selected ++/-- (most are +/-)
    Anarchy - P/ --
    Techs researched and Civics being used --

    Lets look at each in turn. Remember + is a value from 1 to 9, ++ 10 or more.

    Civics selected ++/-- (most are +/-)

    In this section we shall look at each civic category and its civic choices. I have also included techs researched.

    The categories are: Government, Legal, Labor, Economy, Religion and Expansion.


    Government

    Despotism

    If stability is Collapsing (and below mid range for collapsing) you get a boost, which may move you to just below Unstable ++

    Combined with civic Bureaucracy -
    If you have the tech Democracy -
    If you have the tech democracy, and switch to universal suffrage, you suffer for a number of turns. --

    Hereditary Rule

    If stability is Collapsing, caps it just below Unstable ++
    Combined with civic Vassalage +

    If you have the tech Democracy -
    If you have the tech democracy, and switch to universal suffrage, you suffer for a number of turns. --

    Representation

    If stability Solid (and in top half of range) +
    Combined with civic Bureaucracy +
    Less than 3 cities (+ per city, capped) +

    More than 3 cities (- per city, capped) -
    If you have the tech Democracy -

    Police State

    If stability is Collapsing (and below mid range for collapsing) you get a boost, which may move you to Unstable ++
    Combined with civic Nationhood ++
    For every 5 cities + (capped at 50 cities) ++
    Combined with civic State Property +
    If stability is less than solid and you have a jail the city gets extra stability +

    If you have the tech Democracy -
    Combined with civic Free Speech --
    If you have the tech democracy, and switch to universal suffrage, you suffer for a number of turns. --

    Universal Suffrage

    If stability Very Solid (and in bottom quarter of the range for Very Solid) ++
    If you have the tech Democracy (no penalty) equivelant to +

    Combined with civic Barbarism -
    If you have the tech democracy, and switch from despotism, hereditary rule, or police state you suffer for a number of turns. --

    Government Notes.

    Switching from representation to universal suffrage causes no penalty. If you had enough time and assuming you are stable enough. You could avoid the penalty by switching from one of the despotic civics to representation and then to universal suffrage when you are able to switch again.

    Hereditary Rule and Vassalage during the middle age is a good combination. +
    But they give no bonus in any other era.


    Legal

    Barbarism

    Combined with civic Universal Suffrage -
    If you have the tech Liberalism -

    Vassalage

    Combined with civic Hereditary Rule +
    Select in Medieval era +

    Select outside Medieval era -
    Combined with civic State Property -
    If you have the tech Liberalism -

    Bureaucracy

    Combined with civic Representation +
    5 or less cities +

    6 or more cities (- per city, capped) -
    Combined with civic Despotism -
    If you have the tech Liberalism -

    Nationhood

    Combined with civic Police State ++
    Combined with civic Mercantilism +
    For each civ you are at war with +

    Combined with civic Pacifism --
    If you have the tech Liberalism -

    Free Speech

    If you have the tech Liberalism (no penalty) equivelant to +
    Combined with civic Police State --

    Legal Notes.

    Hereditary Rule and Vassalage during the middle age is a good combination. +
    But they give no bonus in any other era.


    Labor

    Tribalism

    If you have the tech Democracy -

    Slavery

    If you have the tech Bronze Working, until you get the tech Constitution +

    If you have the tech Democracy -

    Serfdom

    If you have the tech Democracy -

    Caste System

    Combined with civic State Property -
    If you have the tech Democracy -

    Emancipation

    Combined with civic Free Religion +

    Combined with civic Theocracy -
    If you have the tech Democracy (no penalty) equivelant to +

    Labor Notes.


    Economy

    Decentralization

    If you have the tech Economics -

    Mercantilism

    Combined with civic Nationhood +

    Free Market

    Free market has the possibility of getting a great depression, --
    (This happens if you have excessive production over commerce.)

    State Property

    Combined with civic Police State +

    Combined with civic Caste System -
    Combined with civic Vassalage -
    If you have the tech communism and switch from state property, you suffer for a number of turns. --

    Environmentalism

    No effects on stability.

    Economy Notes.


    ]Religion

    Paganism

    No effects on stability.

    Organized Religion

    With a state religion, every other religion in the city results in a penalty for that city. -

    Theocracy

    Combined with civic Emancipation -
    With a state religion, every other religion in the city results in a penalty for that city. -

    Pacifism

    Combined with civic Nationhood --

    Free Religion

    Combined with civic Emancipation +

    ]Religion Notes.


    Expansion

    This is a brand new civic column that only affects stability.

    Subjugation

    No effects on stability.

    Viceroyalty

    For every Vassal Civ* +

    Resettlement

    For every city built 15 or more tiles from the Capitol. +

    Occupation

    On capturing a city. +
    If at war no penalty for occupied cities due to citizens anger, religion or foreign culture. Equivalent to +/++

    Commonwealth

    No penalty from low imports/exports. Equivalent to +
    No penalty from low economy/population ratios. Equivalent to +

    Expansion Notes.

    The commonwealth civic prevents new negative modifiers. It doesn't eraze the existing ones.

    .............................

    Anarchy - P/ --

    When you change civics you get a period of anarchy (except when you have the Unique Power to prevent it).

    Your permanent stability is effected by anarchy. -

    During the period of anarchy your stability takes large drop. --

    Anarchy Notes

    If your stability is UNSTABLE the period of anarchy will drop you into the COLLAPSING range.
    Having a golden age raises stability, so changing civics in a golden age may prevent this.

    BtS only. There is no anarchy when changing civics or religion in a golden age.



    .................................................

    Techs researched and Civics being used --

    These are also covered in the "Civics" section above.

    Every new Tech has a + or - stability value based on its historical effect on society.

    Basically the '+' techs are those that were historically beneficial in some way: Religion, Rule of Law, Education, Entertainment, Commerce, Production and Food provision amongst others.

    The '-' Techs are those that historically had some negative effects on society: military units, new forms of government or polluting Industrial features etc.

    Some techs have additional effects:

    Democracy unless you switch to Universal Suffrage and Emancipation. -
    Democracy and switching to Universal Suffrage from Despotism, Hereditary Rule or Police State -- (for a number of turns).
    Liberalism unless you switch to Free Speech. -
    Bronze Working (before Constitution is researched) and using civic Slavery. +
    Economics and using civic Decentralization -
    Communism and switching from State Property to a different civic -- (for a number of turns).

    .....................................

    Credits.

    Shadow Lord, Wolfigor for their guides, Whitefire for his posts explaining things, and of course Rhye. :)

    I used details from posts made by these guys - thanks.


    Note final part is post 33 on page 2.
     
  4. Edungeon

    Edungeon Flying~

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    Good Idea, since a lot of people have problems deling with Stability. Just one suggestion: more screenshots! they are good for the eye and don't scary a player that is going to read a guide with a lot lines and no pictures :).

    Oh, if you want i can take the ss... o/
     
  5. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    Keep up the great job! This will end up in the pedia once completed.
    I think you should help yourself grabbing info from the current incomplete page
    http://wikirhye.wikidot.com/stability
    and then replace it with numberless descriptions
     
  6. Harrier

    Harrier Chieftain

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    If you can do that it would be great.

    I am busy trying to figure out how it all works at the moment, plus how to explain it without being to complicated.

    I have lots of scribbled noted plus copies of others posts.

    If you can post some screenshots I will try to add them to the post. Never done that before but I guess it is not rocket science. :)
     
  7. Edungeon

    Edungeon Flying~

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  8. Harrier

    Harrier Chieftain

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    Part 2 added to the second post.

    DUH !?! :lol:

    Well Rhye beat me to it, a new update. :goodjob:

    This thread does not YET include any possible changes Rhye has made in the new version.
     
  9. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    Harrier, you did a great job.
    In Foreign category you wrote
    Cities built,occupied, traded,razed or lost +/-
    but actually is
    Cities traded +/-

    In the new version the only important change is (speaking in this guide's terms):
    Number of contacts +/-
    checked every 3 turns and in the Foreign category.

    More the contacts, more the penalty.
    It was added to help East Asian civs, who having less contacts, tend to develop less trade and get a lower Economy rating.
     
  10. Edungeon

    Edungeon Flying~

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    I didn't know about stability in techs! good to know!

    Keep up the good work! :goodjob:
     
  11. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    And tech is +/- depending on its historical effect on society - not a matter or military/civilian
     
  12. blackheart

    blackheart unenlightened

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    What exactly are the historic civ sizes for each civ? Like, as Mongolians, do I become dangerously unstable once I enter Europe or India? It seems to me that if you step outside of historical norms at all (such as American conquering Germany) your civilization will descend into civil war, even when you're winning the war and have a massive military and otherwise.

    Could there be an option to disable stability factors in our game or maybe have the chance to tune it down given that it isn't very well documented ingame?
     
  13. Whitefire

    Whitefire Chieftain

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    America has regions in Europe that it can occupy. I would have already put together a map for this, but Rhye told me not to. Besides, there's no oil in Europe and, if you take land there, you'll be choked by the culture of 4-5 other civs. Best stay out of that quagmire.

    Play on Viceroy.
     
  14. blackheart

    blackheart unenlightened

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    Thanks for your opinions, but I don't have a choice with Germany finishing up spaceship components. Regardless, we should know where the invisible line is so we don't cross it and have our empires crumble. And don't presume to tell me how to play my game.

    Then then AI is tremendously more ******ed.

    I feel that all of these invisible boundaries and modifiers regarding "historic" civ sizes really hampers our games. After all history isn't perfectly simulated and many points in history hang on a thread. For example, what would Turkey have been like if they won at Manzikert, or if the Union lost at Antietam, or if China won the battle of Talon River, etc etc? I see why historic civ sizes are emulated, but they're rather pointless if we are to play our own game and chart our own course in history. At least make it so they don't cause our empires to collapse once we've extended past the historic civ size.
     
  15. Whitefire

    Whitefire Chieftain

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    Why are you blaming historical boundaries when you don't know where they lie? Regardless, Rhye has explicitly stated that he does not want insanely large empires that control 1/3 or more of the land except for rare cases.

    Build ICBMs, nuke the Krauts, bribe an AI into declaring war.
     
  16. LuKo

    LuKo The Royal Guard

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    I think that Rhye should change economy system- economy should benefit great empires and only stability and long borders should "fight" with it.
     
  17. Harrier

    Harrier Chieftain

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    If you knew what and where the boundries were - there would be no point in having them. As most players would exploit this information, while the AI would still be penalised. Remember it effects both human and AI civs.

    Thats the point of the game many points in history do hang on a thread. And we now have a chance to try and change it.

    Considering the whole design and programming team consists of ONE person - Rhye. I think he has done a brilliant job of trying to simulate history. Apparently, so does Firaxis - hence its' inclussion in BTS.

    This mod is a game based on the simulation of history. Hence the name "Rhye's and FALL of Civilization".

    That is also why we have the Historic Victory conditions in addition to the standard ones.

    If you go for the standard ones (except conquest - this option should really be removed from the Victory screen.) you just have to play the game differently from normal Civ4. No more bulldozing all the other civs into submission.

    It is not a mod that just uses an Earth map, with extra units, extra techs, extra buildings etc and some gameplay additions so you can try and conquer the entire world.

    There are plenty of those available and some are very good.

    With this game if you want to go for Domination, I am sure it can be achieved. You just have to take your time. Build up your stability, expand a little stopping when you become Shaky. Rebuild your stability and expand again etc.

    Choosing the right civs to begin with also helps.
     
  18. The Q-Meister

    The Q-Meister Chieftain

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    Very good advice and info on the Stability Question. Keep up the good work.

    As I stated in other threads though, for me, more advice on the civics (beyond the obvious mismatches like Police State/Free Speech) it would be greatly appreciated as that is the only aspect of Stability I really am confused about. In the post-medieval eras my Civic rating on the stability screen crashes to 1 star almost the entire game despite having my overall stability at times being stable or even solid.

    So any increased attention on those pesky civics, particularly in the later eras, would be very helpful for me and I'm sure others as well.
     
  19. Riker

    Riker True Metal of Steel

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    It seems that you lose stability when razing cities. And, playing as the mongols, I'm razing a lot (still not understanding how to make their up work, though...)
     
  20. blackheart

    blackheart unenlightened

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    Because it doesn't make sense to my why I can't conquer outside of my historical norms.

    Since you keep insisting on telling me how to play my game, let me spell it out for you: nukes are banned, Germans are too powerful for anyone to go to war with, etc.
     

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