A hot potato - switching to Republic or Monarchy first?

[Wai_Wai]

Hi.
I'm playing Civ3 Conquest v1.22.

Republic - Reconsideration in Conquest
The new "Republic" government is toned down overall. Athough it has a bit free unit supports (1,3,4), the biggest disadvantage is 2 gold per additional unit. This makes me to hold back and think if it is still a good government type.


1)
Republic vs Monarchy - in early game
In my first switch from despotism, should I switch to Monarchy or Republic? Is Republic still better than Monarchy in early game? Why?

PS: I have read some similar threads about Republic vs Monarchy. Still I haven't found the answer, especially to the issue relating to "2 gold per additional unit".


-------
If "Republic" is worth switching to, I would like to ask some questions about practical issues:

2)
Switch to Monarchy temporarily, or wait for Republic
Sometimes I find switching to Republic too early is even worse, due to the fact that I get no/insufficient luxuries &/or small empire (eg towns only, low population).

Situation: I am non-religious civilization and in early game.
I wonder if I should do the following:
- Despotism --> Monarchy --> Republic
- Despotism (wait until my empire is mature for the switch) --> Republic

3)
Stay in Republic? Or Switching to Democracy?
Situation:
- I am non-religious civilization
- I am Republic now

The question is what factors I need to consider when making the decision relating to keep staying in Republic, or switching to a better government type (eg Democracy)?

Stay or switch? How to make this decision?

PS: Assume any situation to facilitate your answer/response.


Thanks for your answer.

 

[MeteorPunch]

Generally, most people go Republic unless there is lots of prolonged early warfare coming up.

 

[Wai_Wai]

But how do they manage to go to Republic?
Preparation is needed before going to Republic. What to do if I am not ready for a switch?
Stay at despotism, or else?

How about the "2 gold per additional unit"? Can Republic'a advantage of 1 extra commerce outweigh this disadvantage?

 

[MeteorPunch]

But how do they manage to go to Republic?
Preparation is needed before going to Republic. What to do if I am not ready for a switch?
Stay at despotism, or else?

What is needed to prepare to go to Republic?

How about the "2 gold per additional unit"? Can Republic'a advantage of 1 extra commerce outweigh this disadvantage?

Unless you have a bunch of units you probably don't need, yes.

 

[Wai_Wai]

What is needed to prepare to go to Republic?

"Happiness", "Unit Support" issues.

If you don't have enough luxuries to keep your citizens happy without MPs, it will be a trouble.
if you have large number of units, you need to pay for 2 gold which may be previusly free.

Unless you have a bunch of units you probably don't need, yes.

Not get what you mean.
would you mind to explain in depth?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

The benefit from republic generally outweights the unit support pretty easilly.

Luxury resources are the best thing when you are republic.
Cities size7+ also help a lot.
Roads on every worked tile is of course needed, but that is a given in any situation.
Marketplaces can help loads as well, but are not truly needed. Often, most of these are build after becomming republic.

If you have many units costing you support, USE them. these units can capture cities. These cities will pay for their support and if you choose to capture the correct cities, they will provide you extra luxury resources.
In republic, don't keep around those outdated warriors spears and archers, make sure you only have the best units you can get at that moment. Upgrade or disband the old ones.

 

[Wai_Wai]

The benefit from republic generally outweights the unit support pretty easilly.

Luxury resources are the best thing when you are republic.
Cities size7+ also help a lot.
Roads on every worked tile is of course needed, but that is a given in any situation.
Marketplaces can help loads as well, but are not truly needed. Often, most of these are build after becomming republic.

If you have many units costing you support, USE them. these units can capture cities. These cities will pay for their support and if you choose to capture the correct cities, they will provide you extra luxury resources.
In republic, don't keep around those outdated warriors spears and archers, make sure you only have the best units you can get at that moment. Upgrade or disband the old ones.

The problem I faced in one singleplayer game (Emperor Level):
============================
I get no single luxury around my places.
I have about 1X towns/cities (most of them towns, about 3 population). There is very little space left to expand.
There are usually 2 military polices each town (2 spearmen). Quite a few soldiers (mix of spearman and archers).
I am a bit above the free unit support (despotism - 4.4.4) .
I have 1XX golds, technically behind.
============================

What should I do at this situation?
If I upgrade to Republic, I think I will have a hard time.
Should I wait, or switch to Monarchy instantly? Why?

If stay, should I try to increase popluations of all towns to size 7+ now (the luxury expense will be used to keep citizens content)? What else can I do for making a successful switch of Republic?

PS: In fact, I'm a bit short of gold. And a quarter of my land is unproductive dersert. A really hard time... Maybe I'm going to lose soon.

 

[eldar]

Ditch the MPs. Don't build Spears, build Archers or Horses. If you have a load of regular Spears or Warriors in core cities that aren't ever going to be threatened by the AI, disband the lot, they're useless to you. Drop the sliders to zero, adjust Lux first, then go the most comfortable Sci level.

 

[slightlymarxist]

With the risk of repeating myself, I would switch to Feudalism...

...Since you don't have many luxuries, large cities or infrastructure, and you need to expand (=kill AI's).

1. Pack cities really close together (one square apart: CxCxC), except in the area around your capital.
2. Pop-rush units so you can take on your nearest neighbor.
3. After you've taken a few cities, rush-build temples in them (so they don't flip) and make peace (so WW doesn't eat you up).
4. Fill up the gaps with more cities.
5. Keep doing this until you've researched Communism, then switch. Corruption will be massive, of course, but you always have one guaranteed shield per city, and food is incorruptable, so Irrigate everything.

Republic and Monarchy is better if you have fewer, larger cities with access to plenty of luxuries.

If I HAVE to choose between Despotism->Monarchy->Republic or Despotism->Republic I'd say the former if you're Religious, the latter if you're not.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

The problem I faced in one singleplayer game (Emperor Level):
============================
I get no single luxury around my places.
I have about 1X towns/cities (most of them towns, about 3 population). There is very little space left to expand.
There are usually 2 military polices each town (2 spearmen). Quite a few soldiers (mix of spearman and archers).
I am a bit above the free unit support (despotism - 4.4.4) .
I have 1XX golds, technically behind.
============================

What should I do at this situation?
If I upgrade to Republic, I think I will have a hard time.
Should I wait, or switch to Monarchy instantly? Why?

If stay, should I try to increase popluations of all towns to size 7+ now (the luxury expense will be used to keep citizens content)? What else can I do for making a successful switch of Republic?

PS: In fact, I'm a bit short of gold. And a quarter of my land is unproductive dersert. A really hard time... Maybe I'm going to lose soon.

As said, don't build MP under despotism. Just use the happy slider instead.

If you have either horses or iron, dont build archers either. Archers are only used in desparation when you cannot get the needed resources for horses or swords or when you are so clossely surrounded by enemies that you wont have the time or opportunity to get those better units.

Spearmen you should never build. Some people might say you need defence, believe me, you don't. You should simply not build a single defensive unit until either you have bombardment units to protect, or when railroads and 3 movement units are used by the AI(RR so they can gather all their units to your border without wasting moves, 3 movement to attack your cities)

Warriors can be build if you plan to upgrade them to swordsmen. In this case make sure you build veteran warriors though. Also of course can you sometimes build a few scouting warriors in the beginning, or when you want to build a worker in a city that will need more turns to grow than to build the worker.
Very often, by 1000BC, also roughly the time to become republic, i have only 5-8 warriors total. And that is all the millitary i have. If the AI makes a demand from you, just give in and pay.

To prevent yourself from having little gold and being behind in tech, learn to trade. If you trade well, you should be able to have all the techs AND all the gold available in the world. Find some articles or posts on this subject to learn more about this.

In the early game, focus on growth completely. Really food and citizens is all that counts. Make sure all your cities grow as fast as possible and build nothing but settlers, workers and granaries. This will help you get more cities, some of which can be 7+ by the time you get to republic.

The luxuries is of course bad luck if there aren't any in your territory. If there really are non at all, you will probably need quite a high lux slider when going to republic. Still, it should be possible, just don't expect to much of a science research. Of course, you can also delay republic until you conquered some luxes.
If your neighbours do have luxuries, i advise you to focus on quality units (after you have focused on growth) and go get those luxuries from them. Building a dozen veteran warriors and upgrading them to swords usually does a really good job for your first conquest. Don't underestimate your own abilities here. If your military power is average to your opponents according to your advisor, you should be strong enough to totally anihilate them using your intelect for tactical advantage. (Just don't try attacking greece or the other guys with a 3 defence defender)
You can also try trading some luxuries, but at this time this usually is a problem because there is no trading infrastructure yet.

2-3 luxuries will alow a proper start to get your republic running well with a lux slider of 20% or so. Then, trade and conquer more luxes to make your cities grow towards size 12 and lower the lux slider to 0. between both trading and conquering, you should have no problem getting acces to at least 6 of them during the middle ages.

 

[Breunor]

Wai Wai,

The stronger players will go to Republic, and live with its shortcomings. For weaker players, Monarchy is often better.

I felt Monarchy was better for a long time, for all of the reasons you state. I would switch to Republic, and the costs killed me. I couldn't live without the MP.

The stronger players have usually conquered enough territory to get the luxuries they need so that the MP aren't as important. They expand quicker, have more cities. They don't need as many troops to get the job done.

So it was with me. My first games, I suually went to Monarchy. I tried following people's advice and go to Republic, and it didn't work. I kept losing.

But, I got better. Now, I can go to Republic and get it to work out. However, I still go to Monarchy if I'm expecting unceasing warfare; I played most of my first GOTM (#10) on Monachy because I thought the Mongols would be fighting the whole game -- but usually Republic will work better for me.

Breunor

 

[Rohili]

The stronger players will go to Republic, and live with its shortcomings. For weaker players, Monarchy is often better.

I felt Monarchy was better for a long time, for all of the reasons you state. I would switch to Republic, and the costs killed me. I couldn't live without the MP.

So it was with me. My first games, I suually went to Monarchy. I tried following people's advice and go to Republic, and it didn't work. I kept losing.

My thoughts exactly. I still can't get Republic to work for me though I build roads everywhere and have enough luxuries.

============================
I get no single luxury around my places.
I have about 1X towns/cities (most of them towns, about 3 population). There is very little space left to expand.
There are usually 2 military polices each town (2 spearmen). Quite a few soldiers (mix of spearman and archers).
I am a bit above the free unit support (despotism - 4.4.4) .
I have 1XX golds, technically behind.
============================

What should I do at this situation?
If I upgrade to Republic, I think I will have a hard time.
Should I wait, or switch to Monarchy instantly? Why?

If that's the case, I don't see why you should force yourself to switch to Republic if Monarchy is better-suited for your situation. There is no golden rule sayin that Republic is definitely the must-have government. IMHO, you can stay in Monarchy right up to you get Democracy.

 

[nullspace]

2-3 luxuries will alow a proper start to get your republic running well with a lux slider of 20% or so. Then, trade and conquer more luxes to make your cities grow towards size 12 and lower the lux slider to 0. between both trading and conquering, you should have no problem getting acces to at least 6 of them during the middle ages.

Luxury resources are the best source of happiness in the game, but they're less neccessary for a Republic than for a government that does not have a trade bonus. Since every citizen in a Republic makes at least 2 gold (when working a roaded square), they can provide their own happiness with the luxury slider. Even if you have no lux resources or happiness buildings, you can have happy size-12 cities with 40% or 50% on the lux slider. And each citizen will be making 1 gold that goes to gold or science, just the same as a Monarchy at 0% luxuries. Of course, every citizen also produces food and shields. If you tried the same thing with a Monarchy, you'd be spending your entire economy on luxuries.

 

[Offa]

As said, don't build MP under despotism. Just use the happy slider instead.

Are you sure about this. Having a couple of MPs in the capital may allow you to increase science spending by avoiding the happy slider, and get you to republic earlier.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Ya indeed offa, for that i use scouts that return home after meeting nothing but coast or those warriors build in other cities where growth was to slow to start on a worker right away.
I do not build any worriors for the purpose of MP itself. I do use them for MP after building them for those 2 other reasons though.

 

[slightlymarxist]

The stronger players will go to Republic

I find that a tad insulting... I rarely use Republic except certain circumstances. Am I therefore a 'weak' player? I play comfortably on Emperor, mostly using Feudalism. Perhaps you are a Deity player. *shrug*

MP units are still units. There is a point to keeping garrisons except for the happiness effect - protection from the rear.

What's with this Republic fundamentalism? Fine, it works for you. Great. Glad to hear it. But stop being so categoric.

 

[Wai_Wai]

With the risk of repeating myself, I would switch to Feudalism...

...Since you don't have many luxuries, large cities or infrastructure, and you need to expand (=kill AI's).

In fact, I got no luxury in my game. Hard time...

1. Pack cities really close together (one square apart: CxCxC), except in the area around your capital.

I am not used to pack my cities together. Instead I tried to place in a way so the overlapping is the least (CxxxxCxxxxC). Is it a bad or good practice?

Is your "CxCxC" practice for Feudalism only? What's the advantages?

5. Keep doing this until you've researched Communism, then switch. Corruption will be massive, of course, but you always have one guaranteed shield per city, and food is incorruptable, so Irrigate everything.

That's one of them which I am worried. Corruption can be very serious if we practice "CxCxC". I think we may try to abandon some cities (ie "CxAxC [A=abandoned city]) to reduce corruption.

Republic and Monarchy is better if you have fewer, larger cities with access to plenty of luxuries.

If I HAVE to choose between Despotism->Monarchy->Republic or Despotism->Republic I'd say the former if you're Religious, the latter if you're not.

But in my case, what government type would you suggest?

Now I have already laid out all my cities in a loose pattern. I don't know whether I should switch to Feudalism.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Really, sorry if it might be insulting to anyone, Breunor is prett right.

Republic is the government for anyone who does not play special variants.

And breunor, maybe if you start using republic you might become a deity player instead of emperor

For city pattern, 12 usable tiles per city is usually best. If however you expect to win your game really early, like ancient age conquest, or you have very limmited ground available, then you could go a bit tighter to about 8 usable tiles.
Volcanos, tundra and deserts when not agricultural (or when they cant be irrigated) are not usable tiles. Mountains are semi usable, only really somewhat longer games. In most games where i win with knights, i don't use any mountains.
The corrupt area you conquer can be ICSed to support as many unit support, scientists and 1 wealth from every city.

12 tiles per city comes to rougly CxxxC / CxxC. A combination of both. You shouldnt look at a pattern anyway, just search for the best places to settle that are at roughly the correct distance.

 

[vmxa]

Wai_Wai
"I'm playing Civ3 Conquest v1.22.

1)
Republic vs Monarchy - in early game
In my first switch from despotism, should I switch to Monarchy or Republic? Is Republic still better than Monarchy in early game? Why?"

Well hat is two questions really. Should you switch to Mon or Rep, take Rep in most cases. Mon is not very productive and has two big problems at least.
One is research is poor and two is you get hooked on MP's.
By that I mean you get those cities up to size 12 and have limited luxs, you will want at least 2 MP's in each city.

If you have a lot of cities, that ties up a lot of units, that should be on the frontlines.

Yes Mon is better in the early game, but soon becomes and anchor dragging you down or holding you back.

"2)
Switch to Monarchy temporarily, or wait for Republic
Sometimes I find switching to Republic too early is even worse, due to the fact that I get no/insufficient luxuries &/or small empire (eg towns only, low population)."

If you are not religious, you just cannot afford to make more than one switch in the game. You could get a 9 turn anarchy and offset any gains from the new government.

When to switch is one of the skills you get from experience and cannot really be passed on any other way. This is because there are too many variables. One big caveat to the whole topic is the level and victory choices.

I find that at Monarch or lower, you can bend these concepts. At sid Rep may not be viable all the time. I have won at sid without ever leaving despotism, but it is not wise to stay there. It is just that you have to find a convient time to switch. Once I got to that point, it did not matter and I choose to see what the out come would be if I never changed.

"3)
Stay in Republic? Or Switching to Democracy?
Situation: - I am non-religious civilization - I am Republic now"

I never use Dem. First you can often win before it is learned on pangea maps. Second it is an optional tech and you could do better to get to steam.
If you are non-religious, you cannot afford to make two switches or more.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

One more thing about gov swiching.
If you are not religious, you should only swich once, that is to republic.

If you are religious, you could swich to demo or commu in late game if your game is gonna last a significant time.
You could also take a step of monarchy if you are religious, but really, believe me, the situations where that is worth it are very scarce. Also will it very likely make you get more used to monarchy and cause you to swich to republic much too late. You will then miss out on the fabulous commerce bonus republic provides.

When to swich from despot to republic is something which i calculate when i am in doubt. If you do not want to calculate, you will have to learn from experience probably. Just record your income and expenses before you revolt, then look at them after you revolted and optimized your empire (sliders and setting back clowns you used during the revolution) and you will see if you swiched too early.