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A look a Forests

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    False dichotomy. I don't face the decision to work "something nice" and a farm or forests. I work the best tiles first, I'm not unworking great people tiles to get a forest. "But you aren't growing enough to work specialists!" Again, test this. Unwork the farms and watch how your growth barely decreases. I regularly work all great person tiles, and all specialists without working farms in tall capitals. Forests carry the early game until things like trading posts and more specialists. Later on I don't work farms or forests (if I have to work one, I work a forest because it gave science, tourism, and production, and however I plan to win one of those three yields direclty helps), except in wide empires where the forest tiles are god-like because they fight unhappiness and don't need worker time

    I'm a tall player, I don't work farms on grassland as tradition. Ever (okay leave out India). Floodplains only make the cut because there are no forests when I have floodplains. Plains farms happen early but get removed. You are arguing very theoretically, and theoretically sure, farms have a role. This is why we needed the recent round of forest nerfs, now the idea of growing more and doing better later is plausible. It really was badly imbalanced, just mathematically a forest that took no time from a worker was often stronger than tiles such as cows or sheep
     
  2. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    From my experience I don't get the situation where I can work no food and still grow unless it's the capital or I've been stacking food and growth bonuses. Farms are available from turn one and stay relevant for a significant part of the game while forests only have occasional windows when they are useful. In the late game food really does become a non issue and I suppose you can say forests are better at that point. Only marginally though, since most of the pop will be working better things.

    And I'm not arguing theoretically -- more from experience. Forests are niche and I much prefer the chop for production.
     
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    In the majority of cases, farms are not available turn 1...unless you build a worker. And worker first starts are generally poor ones, monument or shrine is generally much better. The only race I could see realistically having workers that early is Carthage because they start with crazy gold now and could buy them.
     
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    You can keep repeating this if you want, it doesn't make it true. Forests earn more total raw yields than a farm on grassland or plains will at almost all stages of the game (unless you take 2 food on farms in freedom). This is a measureable fact, take whatever level of technology you like, even with Cathedrals forests usually earned more total yields. The only way farms were better would be if you considered food drastically more valuable than other yields, which you really shouldn't

    Regardless, the nerfs are alreay done.
     
  5. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    Oftentimes I wouldn't even bother improving Farms because I know that my Forests would be providing so much more - let's see; a perfect Plains farm surrounded on all sides could manage 5 food and a production; a Forest will manage 3 Food, 3 Production, 1 Science, and 1 Tourism. My city might grow a bit slower with a Forest, but the production will give me better infrastructure (more growth), better science (for more better infrastructure), and then the tourism is a nice bonus on the side. Working these tiles is an easy choice - and I could never bear to chop them!

    I still wonder whether a Farm should give +2 Food right off the bat, but I'll play with the current patch for a bit to see how things work out.
     
  6. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    Woops was tired when I wrote that. Still think farms come online faster than herbalists though.

    Again, it's farm + better things vs just forests. There is a use for both and I find farms to be better at what they do.

    I don't mind the changes because both me and the AI hardly ever use forests anyway.
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Again, you can say something if you want, but its clearly false if its false. Often I have the option to do farm + something nice (if you insist on this idea) or forest + something nice (you don't get more nice things by working farms. If anything you get less because your have less production, so fewer buildings with specialists). Post workshop that is usually going to be 2 food versus 2 hammers, 1 gold, and 1 science (or 2 gold if golden age), which was a really decision for competitive players.
     
  8. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    It's definitely not "clearly" false if I have experienced it myself. I find that you'll get nice things one way or another and having the food to sustain and grow puts you in a better position to take advantage of it . Forests take a long time to become useful as well and they often can't compare to other tiles/specialist scalings, not to mention gpp.

    Perhaps my experiences don't reflect what most people are experiencing, Still I think it's important to take note of these things since it is a community patch afterall.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Lunker, it may be useful to understand what kind of yields you are seeing with your farms in the early game. Are you talking about a plains triangle (3f/1p), grassland triangle (4f), floodplains triangle (5f), a 4 piece farm, a 6 piece?
     
  10. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    A heavily forested start is a disaster now; without the +1 food from the Herbalist, you're basically forced to chop everything unless you have tons of flood plains or something.
     
  11. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Oh no! Look at me being forced to have hundreds of free production! How horrible! Curse having all this free production!
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  12. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    Don't know about you, but my workers are plenty busy early game!
     
  13. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    Early game I usually get 3 farm clusters on plains or grasslands. Most of the time I'm able to make 5 tile farms and sometimes the farm circle. I can find wheat very often and floodplains rarely. So generally I pull 5-6 food 1 prod around the time I can get lumbermills rolling.
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Alright this gives us something to work with! For ease of comparison, I am going to use plains.

    So a 5 tile farm provides:
    1) 4 tiles with 3 F / 1 P
    2) 1 tile with 4 F / 1 P

    Forests provide 3 F / 1 P with the old herbalist, +2 food at base. So with this setup, the forest is providing +1 food over the farm setup (at a cost of -1 gold). Further, early game I generally think it takes longer for a worker to build 5 farms than a city to build 1 herbalist.

    The mystic farm circle (7 tiles, which I admit I almost never have space to make because of bonus tiles, but it could be the maps I play on).

    1) 6 tiles with 3 F / 1 P
    2) 1 tile with 5 F / 1 P

    So this arrangement was just equal in food and production to the old herbalist + forest...and I had to terraform 7 tiles to make it work.


    In general with a lot of work (7 farms takes a while to make!) and perfect placement ability, farms just break even with forests. Now sure you can have wheat for your farms, and I can have deer for my forests. You get civil service to bump your farms...well your freshwater ones (so situational). But earlier than that I get the workshop to give all of my forests +1 P. And then a lumbermill for another +1 P. Then...I get the university to give me +1 science. Then....you finally get your non-freshwater tiles some food, but your best food tiles don't increase. Meanwhile, I get +1 tourism for my zoos.

    This is why CrazyG and I both said that forests were so much better.
     
    ryanmusante and CrazyG like this.
  15. Chandler

    Chandler Warlord

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    Hm... What about giving the Herbalist a +1 :c5food: to farms? Or maybe an early (not too early) tech giving that bonus to farms. I actually like the idea of a base +2 :c5food: to farms, but that might be too strong from the very beginning.
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Plains forest without deer can be a little bit tough, but otherwise I think its alright
     
  17. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    Building farms might take long but workers are asynchronous from the production queue. I generally like to build shrine/monument before anything because at that stage in the game I compete for religion/wonders.

    As for the deer vs wheat comparison I do agree that deer are a strong boon for forests. But I see that as being related to camp giving +food more than it being a forest. For example: if I have a city with lots of forests and deers, I would probably only work the deers and other citizens be on duty elsewhere, rather than work forests. Coincidentally this is how the city ai usually handles it for me -- I hardly ever see them work forests.

    I suppose in the same vein you could say farms on the edges of a farm setup are weak. I generally don't work those if I have a choice.

    I get that forests have more yields than farms in terms of techs, but farms get yields by building more farms. I wind up seeing a lot of apple baskets from farms earlier than forest bonuses come online.

    The reason I say farms were in a good place is because you could create high food tiles in places where you don't have a superior food option (deers, atoll).

    I found forests to be pretty balanced too because you could set up lazy cities in the late game, or use forests to have a city just for producing units.
     
  18. MorphBer

    MorphBer Warlord

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    Honestly this discussion is leading nowhere, forest were clearly stronger than farms in almost any situation. Chopping a lot of forests to create farms was clearly suboptimal play imo. Sure you could get away with it but forest would lead you to a much better position.
     
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  19. DarkZero

    DarkZero Warlord

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    This example is so well explained and real that arguing against it looks like a childish attempt to try to not look wrong, while opinions are subjective they can and often are wrong, when faced whit hard numbers and facts that is, changes have already been made and we should move on from this discussion that is clearly over.
     
    vyyt, CrazyG, Grabbl and 1 other person like this.
  20. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    Agree that the discussion is over. I've explained my reasoning and heard the reasons for farms/forests.

    I didn't appreciate the attitude from some people who disagreed however. Take care not to transform into an elitist circle, guys.
     

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