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A Medieval Era upgrade to the Catapult

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by TyrannusRex, Nov 24, 2020.

  1. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Warlord

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    It may just be me, but I personally think that Catapults become a teensy bit outmoded by the Medieval Era. Just a little.
    The way I see it, Catapults are for taking out Ancient Walls, and Bombards are for taking out Renaissance Walls, but Medieval Walls... well, again, maybe this is just my own gameplay experience, but in my opinion, Catapults are just a little too weak when attacking Medieval Walls, and Medieval Walls, likewise, aren't strong enough to defend against Bombards.
    That's why I believe we need a Medieval Era siege unit, and I recommend the Trebuchet. Not only are trebuchets awesome, they (or a similarly-functioning siege engine) are present in the historical arsenals of multiple cultures. I admit, your typical AoE2 style trebuchet (that needs to be disassembled to be moved) would look a little awkward moving around in Civ VI, but it can't be that hard to realistically make a wheeled trebuchet with its characteristic sling arm, can it? And we all know it would definitely look cool, and, as I've indicated, helpfully balance out Medieval Era armies.
    (I originally was also going to ponder a unit to fill the gap between Pike & Shot and the AT Squad, but I'm not really sure there was one historically. Horse cavalry was still used in WWI, and then when tanks came into their own, we got tank busters.)

    Edit: Wheeled trebuchet? Probably not very mobile, as the article says, but food for thought. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/trebuchet/wheels.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  2. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    Trebuchet not being mobile is pretty much part of their definition. Even packing/unpacking them AOE style didn't really happen because it was just easier to cut local trees than the logistics of carrying so many tons of wood on campaign.

    The bombard, historically speaking, is the weapon that was developed to deal with medieval walls. It should actualy come with lste medieval techs (and before muskets) wih the siege cannon coming in at the renaissance.
     
  3. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Warlord

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    Siege cannon... like the Great Turkish Bombard? To be honest, I can't see the difference. It's just a really big bombard to me.
     
  4. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    I think Military Engineer should be able to spend 1 charge and 2-3 turns to construct a Trebuchet. And it's not a unit. Just two hexes away from the city being sieged. (And maybe make it can only be constructed if city is under siege?)
     
  5. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    Great turkish bombard is (I mean, it's in the name) a bombard - the short barelled siege weapons that appeared in the thirteenth to fourteenth century and remained dominant until the early sixteenth (mid-to-late medieval to early renaissance) Siege cannons would be the long-barreled successors of the Bombards, such as the dutch Kartouwe of the sixteenth-seventeenth century and the french Canon lourd of the eighteenth. (Mid-renaissance to Industrial).
     
  6. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite Emperor

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    @Boris Gudenuf did NOT agree with the existence of (counterweight) Trebuchets being catapult upgrades for one o two reasons
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/trebuchet-as-medieval-siege-unit.661408/#post-15863493
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/suggestions-for-new-generalist-units.660849/#post-15850760
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/valuing-units-buildings.646107/page-2#post-15460358

    1. Periods active. only 3 centuries active, Began with Crusades, and said to co exists with giant Bombards in the early days just because there weren't enough cannon foundries in 15th Century YET or cannonry of that time weren't that easy to make, simply put in Europe that was the transitions towards Centralized governments.
    2. Pre-gunpowder sieges involves alot more on surrounding enemy city or at least severing enemy supply lines and force them into submission. rather than assault attempts. Catapults and Trebuchets only shoot above the walls to hit defenders at the different side of the walls just like what mortars and howitzers did, these can lob proto-biological projectiles as well (Examples of such projectiles included; 1) a claypot fills with dangerous, and often venomous animals, particularly bees or hornets, scorpions, cobras 2) dead body paricularly in case of epidemics, this one is very nasty) and can also throw either oily fire pots or even explosives (Mongol's favorite projectiles used against Samurai defenders during their attempted invasions of Japan. something that gave a fame to Regent Hojo Tokimune). Simply put. Cities and castles are harder to take in Medieval Era and either battering ram, belfry/ helepolises or even Chinese 'Cloud Ladders' which basically retractable ladders on wheeled carriage, laying siege requires a big deal of manpower and historically it could ruin invader's coffers if they failed to subjugate or even assault such fortified positions in time, not counting a risks of successful sorties by defenders or even relief operations by either allies or the city owners came from elsewhere.

    If trebuchet is to exists then it should be a bit more expensive, and slightly more powerful 'Bombardment attack' with the same Combat strenght (melee defense) as catapults. Trebuchets were not a game changer yet. in truth castles were still formidable. Only bombards did change the game, and in game representations of bombard is incorrect because Bombard should appear before musketman and Pike&shot. Bombard doing big damage to city as shown in game however is correct.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020

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