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A mishmash of ideas, bugs, suggestions and impressions from a first play through.

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Chamrin, Dec 8, 2012.

  1. Chamrin

    Chamrin Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Played through a game on a huge map standard speed on prince, less than normal opponents, so it left lots of room open which made barbarians a big problem for a lot of the computer opponents for a while. Kept a single city till I hit size 40 (yeah seriously), then expanded quickly. At the end the city was size 56, won through culture because turns were taking too long for me to want to try to win by conquest.

    Overall I'd say I enjoyed the mod, but not all parts of it, as I'll try to detail below.

    First the bad, don't take these the wrong way, just my opinion. :) So without further ado:

    -Remove vanguard units from the game entirely. They don't really have a clear role. defense? Archers->machine guns. Offense? Warrior->Infantry. Pillaging? Horsemen->Tanks do it better. Maybe they're useful for some in the early game, but from gunpowder on I don't see the point at all. They just add clutter.

    -Naval is a mess. While sea melee raiders are an interesting idea in the wooden days. It completely falls apart from the industrial age (Ironclad/Destroyer). The idea of having sea raiders that plunder coastal cities doesn't work with modern ships. they're crewed by a few hundred people at most, they're not going to go charging into enemy cities and plundering, it puts their ship at major risk, they'll sit back and blow stuff of from a safe distance. It's even sillier that subs can melee attack cities too. I'd recommend reverting to the Strong Ranged attack with weaker str for subs and not allowing them to attack cities at all.

    It's funny, You've got galleon's with 35 str and destroyers with only 30. Destroyers should completely obliterate galleons. It doesn't make sense to me either that galleons are more powerful ships than frigates, in previous civs, they were always cargo carriers and weaker, while frigates ruled the seas at their time.

    -Promotions don't make a lot of sense for numerous units. There's no real relevant promotions for anti air guns and sam, they instead can get promotions like siege vs cities.
    For Naval Units again. The melee naval units get access to blitz but with 75% reduced power even though they have no ranged attack. I didn't get a chance to test the effects of that out however.

    Other bugs I encountered
    -Battleship model is partially nearly fully submerged.
    -Ships are exerting a zone of control on land units. This shouldn't happen. Land units should be able to move past ships in water.
    -Pentagon says it gives heal after move or attack to all units, but doesn't give to air units. Some units have march, but still have march as an available promotion. (3 different march promotions)
    -Missile Cruiser does not have indirect fire even though it clearly should (battleship had it)

    National Wonders, would be great if you had to build the prerequisite building in All or 6 cities whichever was less. Let the 6 scale with map size maybe. But I favor this over 75% or 100% simply because it forces you to put off founding new cities at certain times.

    Civics:
    Tradition:Oligarchy Get rid of the 0 maintenance thing for garrisoned troops, it makes the player pedantic about keeping as many units in cities as possible. Glad they got rid of this, don't like seeing it back again.

    Slowdowns: I've got a pretty fast computer, but here's the areas that I saw slowdowns, playing on a huge map.
    At the end of my turn after I hit next turn. There was a relatively long delay before other civs would start going through their turns.
    City Screen, any time I would adjust citizens manually.

    Some new things I'd like to see.

    Forts that allow ships to dock/pass through and act as an airfield so planes can be re-based to them. Great for making canals, and airbases for bombers to get in range of an enemy far from your cities.
    A National Wonder: Superhighways that makes all improved terrain in your territory act as if there was a road on it, that includes psuedo bridges over rivers if both sides are improved. Not sure if it's possible, but it'd sure be nice to have, and speed up the late game a bit.

    Finally a weird question, why the change in great firewall from 99.9% spy reduction to 100% reduction. More so, can anyone explain why they left it at 99.9% instead of 100%?

    Again, overall I enjoyed the mod, and look forward to see where it goes. I'd love to see it reach the level of balance that sevo's mod did for civ4.
     
  2. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    The subs part has been debated a few times and hasn't progressed lately. I'm with you on moving them back off into ranged.

    I think it's reasonable to have melee ships still into the modern era that then represent amphibious groups (that they escort or provide shore-bombardment for), as an abstraction that is useful for gameplay. Gameplay trumps realism sometimes. But that doesn't require that they be subs (or make sense that they be subs).

    Melee ships are more powerful because they can be hit by ranged ships with focus fire attacks pretty easily. The biggest change to them remaining isn't strength (which is at this point reasonably balanced for game play, based on the changes proposed most recently to carracks especially) but reducing the move after attack down to 1 move. Keep in mind also that :c5strength: is not :c5rangedstrength:. The DD is 40 and faster, so it should be able to blast away at a galleon just fine. (Note: I've been using a modmod for ships with DDs as melee 60 instead of subs, so naturally they can eat galleons for breakfast, lunch, and dinner).

    Missile Cruiser is an easy fix. I don't think the problem is the mod. GK doesn't include indirect fire on MCs either.

    Promotions still need to be consolidated further to make more sense, yes. I've noticed several useless or nearly useless promotions as well.

    Honor policy also provides a good basis for garrisoning troops (happiness/culture). Since you can't keep more than one on garrison duty that I'm aware of, I'm not sure what the issue there would be. I'm not sure the garrisoned troop free upkeep is that major of a deal. There's usually plenty of gold around in most of my games.

    Thal's 75% requirement on national wonders as I recall allowed you to start building one, and found a city over the limit without stopping construction (or removing it from the queue). It does increase cost but that would be true in the 6 city/ALL case too.

    I doubt vanguards are going anywhere. The tricky part now is getting the AI to stop building tons of them as cannon fodder (note: they do still build a good amount of skirmishers without any other changes to arques, etc, but they do not seem to be building a ton of conscripts alongside rifles/infantry)
     
  3. Dunkah

    Dunkah Emperor

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    In the game I am playing currently I am nearing turn 480. I just had Attilla sneak attack me with a fleet of Galleons. His Galleons were doing 50 points of damage to my Battleships while my Battleships were only doing 35 points to him.

    I get that melee units are supposed to be strong but that seems excessive. Also he did nearly 50 points to a missle cruiser.

    Only thing that stopped him from wiping out my whole fleet was the fact that he didn't concentrate his attacks. He could have wiped out most of my ships but chose not to for some reason. Was able to move my ships to cover of cities and move my fighters up to wipe him out utterly. But with even some very minor AI tweaks that would have ticked me off pretty bad to see a fleet of galleons wipe out a modern fleet.
     
  4. Breez

    Breez King

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    I love the Vangaurd line. It is one of my favorite things about this mod. They are a support unit and fill a niche. If they don't work for your stratagy, great! Don't build them. 2-4 fit nicely into mine.
     
  5. Riot_Starter

    Riot_Starter Warlord

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    Vanguard units are amazing. My main army the early game consists of vanguard and archers. I like them since they cost less hammers to build, less gold to maintain, and are very mobile (w/ just barracks, I can always get the movement promo). They are just cheap, expendable, and can swarm the stronger infantry in a pinch.
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    This is one thing I've noticed. I personally don't use vanguard units for that "mainstay force" they were partly designed for. Normally for me that is a mixed of iron and horse units (my last game I had 10 iron and 7 horses on a medium map, still not seeing the "smaller strategic resources" we are supposed to have).

    My vanguards are actually specialist units. They are medics, or scouts, or are used with ignore terrain to cross broad forest/jungle areas. But I personally don't build them on mass.
     
  7. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    This is generally how I use vanguards as well. As healers rather than cannon fodder.

    Last couple test games I did not get very much iron or horses (depending on the game) until I expanded through war. Maybe 2-3 of one and 5-6 of the other. I was using spears/pikes alongside swords or horses. Once I started expanding however, it wasn't too hard to rack up into double digits.
     
  8. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Vanguards are for:
    • Healing
      Healing doesn't work as a promotion for regular units. Firaxis recognized this, and their solution was to nerf the Medic promotion repeatedly. I instead gave it to a dedicated healer class. I feel this is more fun than a weak promotion.
      .
    • Detection
      Vanilla Civ 5 has no wartime recon units. Civ 4 had explorers, but they were useless in actual combat. This is why I named the unit class "vanguards." They go into hostile territory first, in case of unexpected surprises that kill the unit.
    I believe vanguards are the best way to fill those two unique roles. They are also useful as city garrisons or cannon fodder, because they're cheap to build and maintain, but the roles of healing and detection are more important.

    I agree it's unrealistic for any modern ships to fight in melee combat, and also dislike ships capturing cities. Firaxis wants it in the game, though, and Civ does have abstraction. Abstraction is also why there's not much of a leap in unit strength between one era of units and the next.

    Melee ships should get melee blitz, not ranged blitz. Thanks for pointing out that mistake. I'll see what I can do to fix it. Either way, the blitz promotion only reduces ranged strength, so even if it shows on the tooltip it won't affect melee units. :thumbsup:

    I can't fix art problems like the battleship issue you describe. Changing combat stuff like zone of control would require core modding, something I want to avoid.

    The problem with the March promotions is poor design of the promotion database. I can't create 1 march promotion usable by every unit. Promotions have fixed 6 prerequisite slots (used to be worse at 4!), so we can't create promotions with more than 6 prereqs. This means one verson of march has 6 melee requirements like shock and drill, while another version of march is ranged, and another is air.

    Thanks for pointing out the Missile Cruiser indirect fire bug. I fixed that now. :)

    I agree a national wonder requirement like "needs 6 cities" would be better. The problem is it does not scale to map size, and doesn't have a special version for one-city-challenge games like in Civ 4. Changing this would require core modding.

    The honor tree's Military Caste policy also encourages city garrisons, like Oligarchy. I'm okay with that.

    Like you, I miss canals and airbases from Civ 4.

    I don't know why they left the Great Firewall at 99.9%. I think it's clearer to have it at 100%.

    This is why I prefer a fixed 5 iron per player territory, instead of a random amount +/- 50%. I think we already get enough randomness - where the iron appears - without randomizing the total amount. How do other people feel about this?
     
  9. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    There's a mod that gives canal powers to forts. I'm gonna look it up just right now. I would love for that to be included.

    The problem is that the Citadels are already powerful enough as Culture bombs. Can we give that ability to the Great Admiral (but that unit is a naval unit...), or a Engineer?

    EDIT: Found the mod. It's part of a larger combilation of various small stuff.

    As for the Airbase. Would it be possible to create a carrier unit that is land based? Make it really slow, let it carry 4 air units and give it big maintenance. Most probably though, the AI would not understand that which defeats the purpose.
     
  10. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    R.e.d. seems to work with GEM now and has fixed the battleships as far as I can tell. In case anyone wants to grab it.

    I prefer a bit of randomness myself. Some games if I don't/didn't expand there's no oil or coal, or little iron or horses. That's a fun element for me.

    Is it possible to split move after attack into 1-move after for melee ships and move after attack for chariots and other land units? (Shouldn't be too hard)
     
  11. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Are we still capped by the overall number of promotions at ~200?

    That hardcap killed a lot of ideas.

    Personally I prefer not having high levels of resource randomness.

    I think canals are unnecessary, in particular since the AI won't understand how to use them.
     
  12. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    The patch fixed the promo cap and Thal seems to have taken out the files that removed a number of promotions as a result.

    We still have a number of rather weak promotions out there in limbo that could be replaced or added to. (Sentry, Formation, etc).
     
  13. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Some things are ok to just be for the human. This one is something fun and sometimes annoying if you don't have access to. It's however not gamebreaking (it may be in one game out of a hundred) compared to f.e. the sonar problem for AI.
     
  14. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Sure, it would be basically harmless, I just think it's not worth tinkering with existing mechanisms to implement, or spending much development time on. I don't think it would ever be worth spending a great engineer just to get a one tile canal.
     
  15. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Just Forts may be too strong, any Great Person Tile Improvement may work as well. Citadels may work as well since it's easy to get Great Generals.

    And there's actually not much work to be done, just incorporating an existing mod.
     
  16. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I assumed what was being discussed was a dedicated canal improvement, or the citadel.

    Academies, manufactories, holy sites, landmarks giving sea unit access would be bizarre. I think that would break immersion more than it would help gameplay.

    Also weird; how would land and sea units interact on these tiles? Would the ship be able to stop there, or just pass through? If it can stop, does that let you station a ranged ship there that can't be counterattacked? What happens to ships if an enemy land unit enters the tile? If I have a land unit there and a ship there, what happens if the tile is attacked with a ranged attack - which unit gets injured?
     
  17. Dunkah

    Dunkah Emperor

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    I've been running that mod for some time. It works great. Not 100% sure about Ahrimans questions though. Will test.

    Would like to see that code turned into a Canal improvement that works with a Great Engineer. It would need a water/land/bridge graphic to make it look proper.
     
  18. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    I'm with Ahriman that I wouldn't bother wasting an Engineer on a canal. Manufactories and wonders seem more pressing uses.

    I do miss the function of being able to cut a corner here or there, especially near the poles. But that seems like a pretty low priority need.
     
  19. Dunkah

    Dunkah Emperor

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    Having workers build an canal improvement would be cool too. But don't know if that is possible.

    The author of that mod does mention that it is a dll mod.
     
  20. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    @Ahriman
    The AI should understand how to use canals, just not place them effectively. Whoward's mod probably just lets any unit pass through the tile. I suspect combat is handled in the normal way, as if the two units existed in the same land/sea domain.
     

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