A mod-mod: "Dune Wars Reduced"
- Thread starter davidlallen
- Start date
Ahriman
Tyrant
hey guys,, ill realese tommorow a patch with the art by deliverator,
im also gonna add 2-3 units of rovers, and do the units preqeq for bonuses,
doesn anyone have a suggestion on which unit should need which bonus?
also - the thopter new art - i wanna make it unique for the atreides - what will be its name?
im also gonna add 2-3 units of rovers, and do the units preqeq for bonuses,
doesn anyone have a suggestion on which unit should need which bonus?
also - the thopter new art - i wanna make it unique for the atreides - what will be its name?
Ahriman
Tyrant
Also, thumper promotion is useless as long as infantry cannot walk on desert wastes tiles.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
We've already gone through and done this for Crystal, Nitrates, Diamonds, Stravidium and Uranium. (The decision seems to be not to use Iron Ore as a strategic tech right now.) It may need tweaking, but it doesn't need a complete overhaul IMO.
The rationale was:
Crystal -> Suspensors, Flying
Diamonds -> Lasgun Weaponry
Nitrates -> High-explosive shells, bombs, missiles, etc
Stravidium -> Plasteel - late heavy armour
Uranium -> atomic propulsion, power and weaponry
Don't make the Thopter the Atreides UU only. You should use it for Scout or Falcon Thopter - the nice team colour effect will be wasted if only they can build it. I do want them to have a Hawk Thopter UU so you could use the same model for now - the colour will be different anyway. We'll have a full fleet of thopters eventually, but we might as well give the one we have maximum exposure.
davidlallen
Deity
Ah-ha! Feedback on the thumper! I put it in a long time back and I was not even sure anybody had noticed it. I agree the AI will never use it with the current implementation. There was a suggestion to merge this somehow into Fremen units, so that (a) they would never be attacked by worms, and (b) when used defensively, they would still attract worms, but the worm would vanish harmlessly. Can you think of a good way to merge the capability into base unit activities without requiring a separate unit?
Ahriman
Tyrant
AH30
Sand trout are worthless; no tile yield bonus from the desert compound and no health bonus.
AH31
The jump in unit strength from guardsmen (5) elite bladesmen (8) and similar tier units (suspensor gunship 5, hawk thopter 5) to shock troopers (15) and light scorpions (13) is way too big. This needs smoothing.
In vanilla, moving up a tier is typically a 25-60% strength increase; eg swordsmen (6) to macemen (8), horse archers (6) to knights (10) to curaissers to cavalry, but here you have 100%+ strength increases sometimes.
The difference between some of the melee and the city defenders is too big too; in vanilla macemen (8) are similar tier to longbowmen and crossbowmen (6). Here you have elite bladesmen (8, immune to city walls) vs guardsmen (5).
I'd also add some mechanized units earlier on; no reason for a light scorpion to not be a second stage unit rather than third.
Sand trout are worthless; no tile yield bonus from the desert compound and no health bonus.
AH31
The jump in unit strength from guardsmen (5) elite bladesmen (8) and similar tier units (suspensor gunship 5, hawk thopter 5) to shock troopers (15) and light scorpions (13) is way too big. This needs smoothing.
In vanilla, moving up a tier is typically a 25-60% strength increase; eg swordsmen (6) to macemen (8), horse archers (6) to knights (10) to curaissers to cavalry, but here you have 100%+ strength increases sometimes.
The difference between some of the melee and the city defenders is too big too; in vanilla macemen (8) are similar tier to longbowmen and crossbowmen (6). Here you have elite bladesmen (8, immune to city walls) vs guardsmen (5).
I'd also add some mechanized units earlier on; no reason for a light scorpion to not be a second stage unit rather than third.
agreed, not use of making a great model as a uu for now..your right it will go to waste.
ok. for now i wont touch the bonus preqeq.
as said, im gonna add 2-3 rover units that will share scorpion combat name, but will act as early units to support fire, mid game supportn and late as city defense.
good feed, what do you suggest?
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I don't know what's up with the city screen and me. I've got a completely clean install of BTS on a completely different machine, tried dune reduced 1.4.1 and 1.4.4, tried different resolutions... All the time it looks like this:
Note the scorecard over the bottom right. There are various other things missing if you compare with Ahriman's screenshot above - like the culture bar. I've got this with two completely different PC setups - someone else out there must have the same.
Also, I'm getting sporadic CTDs when I run autoplays on Archipelago, so it's not the Arrakis mapscript.
Spoiler :
Note the scorecard over the bottom right. There are various other things missing if you compare with Ahriman's screenshot above - like the culture bar. I've got this with two completely different PC setups - someone else out there must have the same.
Also, I'm getting sporadic CTDs when I run autoplays on Archipelago, so it's not the Arrakis mapscript.
davidlallen
Deity
Is the difference in the city screen causing you some problem, or is it just something you are curious about? I am pretty sure the answer lies in the BUG option screen. Use ctrl-alt-O and go to the city tab. My screen looks like Ahriman's. Any chance you have turned off the great person bar option?
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
Yes, it is causing me a problem because I can't see connected resources, culture bar, etc. I have exactly the same BUG options selected. I haven't changed from the default - it's a completely clean install of BTS and the mod.
davidlallen
Deity
Sorry for asking the obvious, but are you logging python exceptions, and do you have any in your logfile? The crashing savegames you posted in the arrakis thread also appear to generate python errors before crashing (at least they do for me), so that is why I want to double-check this point.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
Hadn't switched it on. You are correct - it's a python exception. I've attached a screenshot - I presume you can make these exceptions go out to a log file somehow.
Ahriman
Tyrant
AH29 Thumpers
Well it can work fine for a human player willing to micromanage with the current implementation if you let infantry move on desert tiles, (or even if not if
I'm in favor of letting infantry units move on desert waste within your cultural borders anyway.
But I'm not sure its a great idea for a mechanic where a human player can mine spice without worm interference but the AI cannot.
Also, in the current build all the worms get killed off as soon as players start getting falcon thopters (the strength 10 guys).
AH31 Unit strength.
Well, in general I'd just say to make sure that each superior tech in a unit line gives no less than 25% bonus and never more than 60% bonus, and aim for ~40% bonuses each time.
So soldier (2) goes to infantry (3) goes to guardsman I (5) goes to guardsman II (8) goes to guardsman III (11) goes to guardsman IV (16).
bladesman (6) goes to elite (8) goes to shock troop I (12) goes to shock troop 2 (18)
etc.
I can give more detailed suggestions in a few days when I have the time, and once I get a chance to look at your modified tech tree.
I haven't looked at yours yet, but tech names to me that just don't seem to make sense are:
Thumpering (merge this with sandworms)
Way of the wise (weird name; make this Cultural Enterprises or somethnig. What is Bakka anyway?)
Cycle of Arrakis (this makes little sense as a tech, and seems unrelated to getting trade routes and marketplaces).
Knowledge engine (what is this supposed to be? How about "Advanced academies")
Diaspora (the disaspora/Scattering happens 3500 years later, after Leto II dies)
Pathfinding (how is this different from desert skills)
Way of the desert (what does this have to do with observatories - which used to be space ports?)
Sovereign system (what is this supposed to be? Some form of Imperialism?)
Breeding program (why is this a tech - only the BGs have a breeding program and they've been doing it for millenia - and what does it have to do with prison camps? Rename it "Internal security" or something)
Monopolism (empty without the corporations - and why should monastaries become obsolete? Its not like Dune has an Enlightenment period like Earth when science takes over)
Mentat healing (mentats don't heal any differently. Cut the suk school tech and rename this one suk school)
Handling machine (what is this?)
Malevolent designs (what is this for? Too FFH anyway)
Ampoliros (isn't this some old legend?
Weirding way/weirding module: why are these 2 separate techs?
Static separator (what is this?)
Probes (this can stay as a tech, but it should be related to espionage points, not anti-air troopers)
Tachyon net (what is this?)
Judge of the Change (why is this a tech? this is the guy responsible for overseeing the handover of a fief and making sure rules are observed)
Baraka (what is this?)
Krazilec (what is this?)
Plasteel, sand allowys, plas-steel armor, plazfibres (why are these separate techs?)
Axolotl tanks (Should come waaay earlier, and should be BTl only and allow their own tech)
Folding space (the Guild can already do this as soon as you have off-world trade, doesn't really make sense as an on-Dune tech.)
Krimskell fibre (what is this, why is this a super-late game tech, what does it have to do with fallout removal?)
The early game and early-midgame of this mod are good; the late-game is weird.
A lot of this stuff is really illogical, IMO you need to rip it out and then build in some more logical stuff.
Examples:
For some midgame stuff, how about:
Personal shields tech (required for shock troops)
Large-scale shielding tech.
Allows House Shield building, gives +100% defensive strength, ignored by lasguns and melee.
In terms of some new late-game stuff, how about:
Artificial spice tech.
Allows Project Amal Wonder, provides +8 spice resource.
No-field tech.
Allows no-room building (gives espionage points)
Allows no-ship (invisible thopter unit with a low national limit)
Also:
AH32
The gap between suspensors 1 (strength 2, strength 5) and supensors 2 (strength 12) is way too large; there are far too many techs in between the two and the jump is too big; trying to launch amphibious invasions is impossible if your enemy has the strength 12 suspensors and you're still on strength 5.
Its even worse that you still have low-strength suspensor escorts for ages because the AI isn't smart enough to unload its army when it gets over land; it waits until it actually attacks. So on several occassions I had the AI show up with a (quite decent) invasion force on their transports next to my city, and the units on the city were able to attack and kill the transports and their thopter/suspensor escort without the units inside being unloaded (I reloaded autosave and let them attack to confirm that there was in fact an army inside).
My recommendation would be to introduce another level of escorts in the middle there.
Any chance of the suspensors getting double-moves over desert wastes and deep desert? It takes way too long to get anywhere at 2 moves.
Or at least bump them to 3 moves.
Well it can work fine for a human player willing to micromanage with the current implementation if you let infantry move on desert tiles, (or even if not if
I'm in favor of letting infantry units move on desert waste within your cultural borders anyway.
But I'm not sure its a great idea for a mechanic where a human player can mine spice without worm interference but the AI cannot.
Also, in the current build all the worms get killed off as soon as players start getting falcon thopters (the strength 10 guys).
AH31 Unit strength.
Well, in general I'd just say to make sure that each superior tech in a unit line gives no less than 25% bonus and never more than 60% bonus, and aim for ~40% bonuses each time.
So soldier (2) goes to infantry (3) goes to guardsman I (5) goes to guardsman II (8) goes to guardsman III (11) goes to guardsman IV (16).
bladesman (6) goes to elite (8) goes to shock troop I (12) goes to shock troop 2 (18)
etc.
I can give more detailed suggestions in a few days when I have the time, and once I get a chance to look at your modified tech tree.
I haven't looked at yours yet, but tech names to me that just don't seem to make sense are:
Thumpering (merge this with sandworms)
Way of the wise (weird name; make this Cultural Enterprises or somethnig. What is Bakka anyway?)
Cycle of Arrakis (this makes little sense as a tech, and seems unrelated to getting trade routes and marketplaces).
Knowledge engine (what is this supposed to be? How about "Advanced academies")
Diaspora (the disaspora/Scattering happens 3500 years later, after Leto II dies)
Pathfinding (how is this different from desert skills)
Way of the desert (what does this have to do with observatories - which used to be space ports?)
Sovereign system (what is this supposed to be? Some form of Imperialism?)
Breeding program (why is this a tech - only the BGs have a breeding program and they've been doing it for millenia - and what does it have to do with prison camps? Rename it "Internal security" or something)
Monopolism (empty without the corporations - and why should monastaries become obsolete? Its not like Dune has an Enlightenment period like Earth when science takes over)
Mentat healing (mentats don't heal any differently. Cut the suk school tech and rename this one suk school)
Handling machine (what is this?)
Malevolent designs (what is this for? Too FFH anyway)
Ampoliros (isn't this some old legend?
Weirding way/weirding module: why are these 2 separate techs?
Static separator (what is this?)
Probes (this can stay as a tech, but it should be related to espionage points, not anti-air troopers)
Tachyon net (what is this?)
Judge of the Change (why is this a tech? this is the guy responsible for overseeing the handover of a fief and making sure rules are observed)
Baraka (what is this?)
Krazilec (what is this?)
Plasteel, sand allowys, plas-steel armor, plazfibres (why are these separate techs?)
Axolotl tanks (Should come waaay earlier, and should be BTl only and allow their own tech)
Folding space (the Guild can already do this as soon as you have off-world trade, doesn't really make sense as an on-Dune tech.)
Krimskell fibre (what is this, why is this a super-late game tech, what does it have to do with fallout removal?)
The early game and early-midgame of this mod are good; the late-game is weird.
A lot of this stuff is really illogical, IMO you need to rip it out and then build in some more logical stuff.
Examples:
For some midgame stuff, how about:
Personal shields tech (required for shock troops)
Large-scale shielding tech.
Allows House Shield building, gives +100% defensive strength, ignored by lasguns and melee.
In terms of some new late-game stuff, how about:
Artificial spice tech.
Allows Project Amal Wonder, provides +8 spice resource.
No-field tech.
Allows no-room building (gives espionage points)
Allows no-ship (invisible thopter unit with a low national limit)
Also:
AH32
The gap between suspensors 1 (strength 2, strength 5) and supensors 2 (strength 12) is way too large; there are far too many techs in between the two and the jump is too big; trying to launch amphibious invasions is impossible if your enemy has the strength 12 suspensors and you're still on strength 5.
Its even worse that you still have low-strength suspensor escorts for ages because the AI isn't smart enough to unload its army when it gets over land; it waits until it actually attacks. So on several occassions I had the AI show up with a (quite decent) invasion force on their transports next to my city, and the units on the city were able to attack and kill the transports and their thopter/suspensor escort without the units inside being unloaded (I reloaded autosave and let them attack to confirm that there was in fact an army inside).
My recommendation would be to introduce another level of escorts in the middle there.
Any chance of the suspensors getting double-moves over desert wastes and deep desert? It takes way too long to get anywhere at 2 moves.
Or at least bump them to 3 moves.
Ahriman
Tyrant
AH33
Worm-rider (and probably Fremen infantry) can't enter desert waste or deep desert tiles, so the whole sandrider promotion is useless.
Ideally IMO all infantry should be able to enter desert waste and deep desert tiles.
More on techs:
A lot of the upgrade paths are illogical too.
Why should Breeding Program (BG eugenics) lead to Faufrelaches, a societal norm of caste systems?
Why should Fanaticism lead to Landsraad (the interplanetary Parliament)?
Why do Chemical Explosives lead to Knowledge Engine, a tech that allows universities?
Techs need to have a logical flow.
Worm-rider (and probably Fremen infantry) can't enter desert waste or deep desert tiles, so the whole sandrider promotion is useless.
Ideally IMO all infantry should be able to enter desert waste and deep desert tiles.
More on techs:
A lot of the upgrade paths are illogical too.
Why should Breeding Program (BG eugenics) lead to Faufrelaches, a societal norm of caste systems?
Why should Fanaticism lead to Landsraad (the interplanetary Parliament)?
Why do Chemical Explosives lead to Knowledge Engine, a tech that allows universities?
Techs need to have a logical flow.
davidlallen
Deity
This is definitely better. But still, when I look at it, I immediately find some things which look weird/illogical. So I think it needs a little more tuning.
* Thumpering only gives improved sight range, very thin
* Ablative shielding has 3 AND prereqs, too many to display neatly
* Sovereign Systems is empty
* Monopolism is practically empty, it only obsoletes something
* Nullentropy only allows blitz, which does not seem very logical
* There are still some places where the style of the tech changes direction: heat shields (technology) leads to Weirding Way (philosophy); Monopolism (economical) leads to bioenergy (biological); Fission (technology) leads to Judge of Change (philosophical) leads to Gene manipulations (biological).
* Many techs have AND prereqs with no reason, in particular you sometimes have an AND tech which is anyway below it in the tech tree. For example, Weirding Module has an AND prereq of Ampoliros; but there is no way to get Weirding Module without already having Ampoliros.
* Crystal Materials and Sand Metals only reveal; this is very thin
* A lot of the techs could be pushed to the left on the screen. This is tedious; but for example, look along the line sand metal -> solid fuel -> ablative shielding. You would think that ablative shielding is the same tech tier as Way Of Liet; but it has many fewer actual prereqs. Whenever a tech has space to shift it left on the screen, you should do that. If possible, you should do this *before* adjusting the tech costs.
(EDIT missed typing in some of my notes, added below)
* Plasteel is empty
* Distrans (a communications term) allows the renamed Wall Street wonder, and leads to Weirding Module, none of which fits together
davidlallen
Deity
Sorry, I thought you knew this. When you have python logging turned on, look into file My Documents/My Games/Beyond The Sword/Logs/PythonErr.log. This is where all python errors get logged. When you get a crash, please look to see if this file is empty *before starting another game*. This will often give crucial clues about what caused the crash.
EDIT: regarding the specific python exception, *please turn off the four revolutions related options in your game options screen.*
hi, havnt had much time to read all the posts,
but ill say this the tech oreqeqs aaarnt 100% logical since again, i needed to link techs so the life span of most units will be longer,
try to look at the tech tree witout logic, and youll see what i mean, i would prefer if you guys just rename the techs to make since rather then movinh them around again...
but ill say this the tech oreqeqs aaarnt 100% logical since again, i needed to link techs so the life span of most units will be longer,
try to look at the tech tree witout logic, and youll see what i mean, i would prefer if you guys just rename the techs to make since rather then movinh them around again...
Ahriman
Tyrant
I think the tech tree needs a more serious redesign rather than just some minor renamings, I'd suggest a detailed consideration of posts 154-156.
I know its a lot of work, but its a big part of the mod.
You should be able to describe what kind of innovation a particular tech yields in a short, 1-sentence description, that ideally should be hinted at from its name, even to people who aren't Dune experts.
Eg1: The Water conservation tech represents the basic ability to use water efficiently, and so allows construction of the dew collectors and windtrap improvements.
It is a pre-requisite for techs that allow further improvements in water management.
Eg2:
Defense tactics represents improved defensive military doctrine, hence it allows construction of improved defensive infantry (Infantry) and improved city defenses (Defense grid, advanced defense grid).
It is a pre-requisite for further military doctrine improvements.
These are all well designed techs.
For the techs I listed in post 154, I don't think any such simple explanation exists.
Try writing such a sentence for Diaspora, or Judge of the Change, or many of the other techs in the list.
I know its a lot of work, but its a big part of the mod.
You should be able to describe what kind of innovation a particular tech yields in a short, 1-sentence description, that ideally should be hinted at from its name, even to people who aren't Dune experts.
Eg1: The Water conservation tech represents the basic ability to use water efficiently, and so allows construction of the dew collectors and windtrap improvements.
It is a pre-requisite for techs that allow further improvements in water management.
Eg2:
Defense tactics represents improved defensive military doctrine, hence it allows construction of improved defensive infantry (Infantry) and improved city defenses (Defense grid, advanced defense grid).
It is a pre-requisite for further military doctrine improvements.
These are all well designed techs.
For the techs I listed in post 154, I don't think any such simple explanation exists.
Try writing such a sentence for Diaspora, or Judge of the Change, or many of the other techs in the list.
hey.
well...i thank you ahriman for the feed again,
i can do renaming easily,
some of the tech names you ask of, are infact just some terms i found on wikipedia .
so i dont know what a proper logical tree is needed, the structure it self, i think is pretty good, ,
i would appriciate if any of you can just build a proper tech tree, even on excel, and ill do the xml it self, along with positioning the units and techs.
dont worry about empty techs, they will be filled later on.
i really wanna finish with the tech tree work, its a draw back that we must conclude.
plz help in this matter.
well...i thank you ahriman for the feed again,
i can do renaming easily,
some of the tech names you ask of, are infact just some terms i found on wikipedia .
so i dont know what a proper logical tree is needed, the structure it self, i think is pretty good, ,
i would appriciate if any of you can just build a proper tech tree, even on excel, and ill do the xml it self, along with positioning the units and techs.
dont worry about empty techs, they will be filled later on.
i really wanna finish with the tech tree work, its a draw back that we must conclude.
plz help in this matter.
