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A moderate warmonger penalty is -16!!??

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Dustbrother, Oct 22, 2016.

  1. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Pretty much this. Or if you're playing on continents, spend the Medieval and early Renaissance era taking out the rest of your continent before making contact with the other continent. Then hope that Harald doesn't arrive prematurely in his longboats just before you're done dealing the final blows to silence all those who know about your warmongering.
     
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  2. Dustbrother

    Dustbrother Chieftain

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    This is an interesting question. if the AI does not observe your warmongering do you still have the modifier with them. I'll bet your warmonger score is the same irrelevant of whether they knew you when you did the crime or not.
     
  3. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    you don't get warmonger penalties from the era before meeting AI's... the victims don't tell either...

    what I mean... whatever you accumulate as negative warmonger penatly before you meet another new AI is not influencing diplomacy with the new AI.
     
  4. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    There's no warmonger penalty with civs who haven't met you or the target before the war is over. In my current game I took out my own continent early, right in time before Harald arrived. Now I have met everyone on the other continent. Nobody has any idea about my dark past.
     
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  5. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

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    I am a warmonger. However, good point, it makes sense.
     
  6. isau

    isau Deity

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    Ok I've done a lot of experimenting here and I think I have partially figured this out.

    The diplo modifiers in Civ 6 work differently than in previous games. In Civ 4 for example if you had -1 -2 +3 +5 you'd be at +5 (Neutral). But I had Ghandi at +5 and he was "Unhappy." Drove me crazy because I just couldn't understand what was wrong. How could he be Unhappy with a relationship of 5?

    Well, turns out the numbers don't mean the same thing in Civ 6 that they used to. They mean minus or plus whatever value PER TURN. There is a hidden running total going on in the background, not shown anywhere on the screen, and your pluses and minuses are adding to that each turn (presumably with a cap on the high and low end). So in theory you could hit -16 and the AI still be Friendly with you for a while. But each turn your relationship will degrade until they are no longer happy with you.

    That means the AI may be far less broken than we thought. It's just extremely poorly communicated (you can't see your running total anywhere on the diplo screen) and completely different from previous games, which is what is throwing people.
     
  7. Ashbery76

    Ashbery76 Warlord

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    The CB system needs to mean something.You use them in a minor war and everybody is still hatefull.I think the devs need to play eu4 again.
     
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  8. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    I think King Jason has designated himself the title of "everything's fine guy". :)

    Yes, by his own accounting, a single -16 penalty is significantly disproportionate to all the positive bonuses that have to be stacked five layers high under fairly constraining conditions to get to +20 (which is likely not even accurate). Open borders is something like +3, which is actually a more typical modifier. How many civ's are we supposed to have matching governments with?
     
  9. isau

    isau Deity

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    Here's a screenshot showing what I think is going on. I worked Ghandi up from Unhappy to Friendly by sending him free Gold. It had no effect at first, but after a few turns his opinion of me changed to Neutral then to Friendly. Then I decided to test things by declaring war on Trajan. Ghandi is currently upset, with our total relationship being -11. But he's still friends with me for now, altho each turn he will be getting more and more angry.

    The gotcha is this is totally different than previous Civ games, where the + - showed their absolute opinion. As far as I can see you can not directly see the numeric value of their current opinion. It's a hidden value in the background, increasing or decreasing each turn by the amount in the diplo window.

    Spoiler :

    angry_ghandi.png
     
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  10. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Well, they said many times that warmonger penalties would increase over time, being totally absent at the start of the game.

    Thing is, those penalties also need to be mitigatable over time, and that's made problematic when the result of a civ not liking you is a diplomatic stone wall that precludes the means to gain positive bonuses. Accept my delegation already, you @#%#!!
     
  11. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Ghandi is currently your "declared friend". Which he was before you got the warmonger penalty, right? He's not gonna "surprise war", you so he maintains his DOF until it expires.

    Big difference between that and being friendly. Don't expect that DOF to be renewed in the current state.
     
  12. isau

    isau Deity

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    That's not what I mean. What I mean is that the numbers represent something different in Civ 6 than in 4 or 5. In those games, if you got a -16 penalty it was the absolute value of the penalty. The AI's opinion of you was equal to the total of all those displayed numbers. You could tell if an AI liked you by just adding up all the values.

    In Civ 6, their opinion of you is based on a hidden running total. -16 diplo in Civ 6 appears to mean - 16 per turn to the hidden number. So it's not that the other civs are flipping instantly. They start flipping when the running total get low from being drained by the diplo modifier.

    This also means the increase from a - 8 penalty to a -16 one is HUUUUUUGE jump in penalty. Way more than just 8 points. It's 16+15+14+13+12+11+10+9 points, or 100 points off your running total score. I think whoever coded it assumed 16 was double the penalty of 8, but actually its about four times the penalty. - 8 means 36 points off your diplo score, while -16 means 136 points off your score. LOL.
     
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  13. isau

    isau Deity

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    While we're doing the math, if I'm right about running totals, the difference between 24 and 16 penalty is:

    24+23+22+21+20+19+18+17 = 164 diplo points more for the surprise war.

    Therefor, a surprise war during that era would thus cost you a total of 300 points. I don't know how big the pools are, but I assume thats enough to make someone furious at you unless you have tons of bonuses to counteract it.
     
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  14. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    LOL, it was you attacking everyone for a domination victory that made diplomacy irrelevant.
     
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  15. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Ye i hate the way warmongering penalties go. Also in civ5.

    I believe i read that a surprise war gives 33% more penalty or something like that.

    The difference should be much bigger imo. I think DOWing in itself should be a really modest penalty when done the proper way, Huge penalty for surprise wars.
    Capturing cities should give a moderate base penalty, significantly reduced against civs that are warmongers themselves, increased against peaceful targets.
    Increased against small civs, decreased against bigger civs. Greatly decreased against civs that are close to achieving victory. (seriously, the whole world should celebrate you if you prevent another civ from achieving victory right?)
     
  16. pietro1990

    pietro1990 Prince

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    Just use the mechanic of civ 5 brave new world had the best mechanic it does everything you describe.
     
  17. Synth

    Synth Comrade

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    I'll be waiting for this to be modded in. Or for Firaxis to see this post and steal your idea.
     
  18. fatgordy

    fatgordy Chicken in Pants

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    Has anyone else confirmed that this is truly the case?
     
  19. Big J Money

    Big J Money Emperor

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    We haven't, but with 2-3 samples we could get pretty close, I suppose. I'll start up some games today and keep exact numbers per turn to see if the walls for unfriendly and friendly are indeed at some invisible hit point barriers.

    I would think this is in XMLs too, which I'll look for but haven't modded before.
     
  20. esoba

    esoba Warlord

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    Yeah, the entire CB system doesn't work in its current form. The penalties are too stiff, even for justified wars. You can do everything right to build a relationship and a justified war equals hate from AI civs. I mean the entire system is pointless if a CB in the modern era equals a "Severe" penalty. Then just remove war or diplomacy at that point because it will equate to the entire map hating you with little hope of getting most of those people back to even a moderate feeling towards you. And yes I've done the gifting, trade routes, good trade deals, embassies, and attempting to fit agendas as appropriate. Still went from mostly friendly or no feelings either way to denounced from every civilization for a CB war. This is probably the area I think needs the quickest fix.
     

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