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A Multi-Player View on Starting

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Silver 00, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. Silver 00

    Silver 00 Chieftain

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    Of course I do not believe anyone can win ever time. You may start in a crappy location or several civs could declare war on you at the same time. These things will always be out of our control, but I have found a consistent strategy works in most games. The thing I have noticed while playing both high difficulty single player and multiple player games is that the first 100 moves matter a lot. A strong beginning can help you towards any victory condition. I have seen other peoples beginning strategies, but I have found them to be lacking in explaining how to accomplish multiple things at the same time. So I want to break down my strategies and build order while playing.

    The First City
    Unless you are Australia, always settle by a river, even if you must take a few turn to find an area. Housing matters a lot for the first city.

    Secure your area / Search for Possible 2nd city location / find your neighbor Civs locations
    First use your warrior to explore close to your city. You may need the warrior to defend so never let him go to far away. At this time build 2 slingers. The slingers will also be used to explore the area close to you and deal with barbarian threat. The reason why you should make 2 slingers is that they can cheaply be upgraded to archers later (more on this later). Also be careful to not lose any units (play it conservatively)

    I do not recommend building scouts for a few reasons.
    1) They cannot help you deal with immediate threats (barbarians and other civs)
    2) A tribal village my give you one for free
    3) They can be produce or bought with gold cheaply (when the city production has grown or your treasury has grown).

    Develop your infrastructure to first city
    After two slingers are built, build a builder . The reason I build a builder after 2 slingers is not just for protection, it is because the city's population will be much bigger and will benefit much more from it. After all if you improve a tile and do not have a citizen to work it what good is that.

    When developing your city you must keep in mind the resources the city is surrounded by. Keep the following in mind when developing city.

    Science is greater then Production. Production is greater then Gold. Gold is greater then Culture. Culture is greater then Faith.

    or

    Science > Production > Gold > Culture > Faith

    This priority list seems to be the most true in the long scheme of things.

    However in early game I would argue that the resources should be prioritized as.

    Production > Culture > Science > Gold > Faith

    *I do not include food because I have found it to be easily obtained. Also Faith and Culture may be more important if you are aiming for a culture or religion victory.

    The goal of the first city is to grow as fast as you can then get as much production as you can followed by everything else.

    Be aggressive and try to accomplish multiple things at the same time
    At some early point research Bronze Working (halfway)
    You should have killed or will soon kill 3 barbarian to get the boost to tech. This tech is important for several reasons.
    1) You will be able to see iron resources
    2) You can build encampment district
    3) Your first city might have resource or you can settle your 2nd city near one.

    While researching Bronze Working build 2/3 more units or more units (slinger/warrior) (if city is developing quickly consider a builder too) (Do not forget to use gov policies to increase production of military units and builders)

    From here you must make a choice depending on the situation.

    If an opponent is really close or there is a city state that you want to take over then do the following
    Research archery (halfway)
    Try to build 1 or 2 more slingers before finishing archery. After archery is finished, upgrade all slinger and attack. From here on though you should build warriors, or other units to take there cities as needed. If you are over whelming them consider expanding through settling. with 6 to 8 units they should not be able to counter you unless they too were aggressive.

    If the opponent is a little far away
    Build encampment. Then build barracks or stable depending on the resources. This will increase production by 1 and add some needed housing. At this point you will have 4 -6 slingers and 1 or 2 warriors. Build a settler. Then settle in a strategic location close your opponent. Upgrade your units and attack. With this you accomplished several things. You have settled a new city, you have a city that acts as an encampment (attacking and retreating is more achievable).

    Note: Keep in mind to check opponents military ranking before attacking. If it is high then consider easier targets or keep your forces near you to keep your opponent in check.

    Tech / Civics
    Always try to boost the all early game tech and civics. It is common for me to switch what I am researching after half of the research finished.

    For civics tree your early game goal should be to develop your government as soon as possible. Get Political Philosophy (VERY IMPORTANT!!). The extra policy slots can give you a huge early game advantage over any opponent

    For science tree the early game goals should be to research the techs that will allow your builder to improve your city's resources. Animal Husbandry, and Mining are usually the most important. This is because Pastures and mines increase the cities production. Also both techs lead to war techs (like Archery, Bronze Working and Wheel, Iron Working and Horseback Riding).

    Pantheon
    Ways to get the faith for pantheon in early game
    1) Tribal village gives you a relic or faith
    2) Faith City state you found provides you faith
    3) God King policy (+1 Faith, +1 Gold) (Use God King policy as a last resort.)
    4) Resource or wonder tiles


    The Pantheons can be powerful, but people seem to choose the wrong pantheons

    Below are the ones I have found to be the most important.
    1)God Of The Open Sky - Adds 1 culture from pastures. This will allow you to develop your early government fast.
    2) Oral Tradition - Adds 1 culture from dyes, bananas, citrus, cotton, spices,sugure and silk. This will allow you to develop your early government fast.

    The above two are probably the best if those resources are near you. For example, in an early game +2 culture from 2 pastures will become a ton of cultures in early game and allow you to rush to a government.

    3) God of the Forge - +25% production toward ancient and classical military units. Though the benefit will end after classical era, this will allow you to rush your opponent early game.

    There are a few other pantheons that I do find circumstantially good, but these 3 are usually the best.

    Few other strategies
    1) Try to pillage enemy resources when you do attack this will give you lots of science and culture. If other opponents go for science in early game this can let you catch up or surpass.
    2) Sometimes I have found an undefended city with an undefended science district, builder, mines, etc. I love to declare war with just one unit to mess up their game. The last game I played, I found a science district that was undefended. With one archer I pillage all their progress. Further, to deal with my archer they wasted gold to build a unit to threaten it away.
    3) Uban Planning Civic (+1 Production) is usually better then God King (+1 Faith, +1 Gold). Use God King only as a last resort for a pantheon.
    4) Use builder to harvest woods, rainforrests when building encampment (or any other district). Even if you are using that tile for a citizen to work on , once the encampment is built it gives that production back (in a sense)

    ex.
    2 food 1 production tile (forrest tile) harvested creates a 2 food (grass land)
    Barrack/Stable gives 1 production
    So production gained 1 Barrack/Stable minus 1 production lost for forrest tile = 0 lost production. Also, usually in a game you could move the citizen to a hill or another tile for production. So you do not "lose" anything and you end up saving many turns when building barrack/stable.

    Be strategic when harvesting and you will save many turns and increase productivity. Even better if you can assign citizen to another tile. This is true for any district or building.

    The are a few other benefits to have a encampment. Trading with city that has one give additional production. Additional protection when wall is built. Having envoys to Encampment City State give more production to units for that city. You can build early units like Horseman and Swordsman with 1 strategic resource. You boost State Workforce Civic and get closer to a government.

    Final Notes:
    There is no point in trying to settle a new city or build a district when you can't protect it. It would be a too high of a risk to hope barbarian and other opponents will not attack you. If other opponents spent most of there time doing this, then they will be vulnerable to an attack. Having a strong military gives you more options. After an army is in place bully your weak neighbors and gain all their progress.

    I wrote this in part because I keep encountering online opponents who keep trying to build districts, and builders as early as possible. With only 2 or 3 units to protect there empire. Conquering them was too easy. I want stronger opponents.

    Hope this helps people win their games.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2017
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  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Nice write up
    I disagree that there is a formula like the above that works every time, it's a bit more complex than that but playing an online game does force lots of units and aggression so most of what you say is sound advice.

    I worry little about fresh water and worry hugely over tiles that have 3 production at the start.
     
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  3. myclan

    myclan Prince

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    Agree with you mostly, but when did Encampment start to give production? Barrack is fine for it gives 1 production and 1 housing, but it may be better to build a granary which gives 1 food and 2 housing
     
  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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  5. Silver 00

    Silver 00 Chieftain

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    @myclan
    I have updated my original post. You are correct that the encampment district does not give production. Only buildings inside do like barracks, stable, armory, military academy.

    I usually do not go for granary until things have "settled" for a few reasons
    1) I usually do not need 1 additional food. I have wheat and rice tiles etc that can give me 3 -5 food
    2) I usually can get 1-2 housing from building camps, pastures, farms and plantations in the early game. As well as 1 housing from barrack/stable.
    3) I am expanding. If the attack is going in my favor (and usually it does). I will want to settle more cities. Building a settler makes your city lose a citizen. There is usually no point for additional housing when building settlers in early game.

    @Victoria
    I disagree. Fresh water is very important for first city and probably the next 2. A coastal city will absolutely need build a granary immediately. Either you will "waste" gold or many turns to produce it. Early game Gold probably better spent on unit upgrades, trading units, builders, and purchasing important city tiles. If you decide to produce granary for a coastal city, then the city will not do anything game significant for 10-20 turns (even on online speed). Fresh water saves you the need to for an early game granary. Lastly, later on with a better city production yield, you can build it in a few turns (1-3 turns). This is significant because time is the most valuable resources in early game.

    This is of course not the absolute rule. There are always exceptions like building an early coastal city for science tiles from a natural world wonder (which "saves" you time building campus early game). All I am saying is consider time as a major resource too.
     
  6. VTMatt

    VTMatt Chieftain

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    Nice writeup! I play exclusively single player (thanks, rural Vermont internet speed...), but most of what you've said is pretty applicable there too in my experience. Personally, I try to get a couple cities up as early as I reasonably can, with probably a little less emphasis on military after the initial ~3 slingers, but I'm far from an expert, and of course single player =/= multiplayer.

    All in all, a good read, thanks for putting it together.
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    And I disagree with you.... I have won quite a few time on deity without a fresh water start.
    You see, all you need is your 3 best tiles to be worked for the first 80 or so turns, turn out soldiers and settlers.. the settlers keep the pop down. And please do not tell me I need big cities because I pay 0 attention to growth and do not always build granaries. Why would I waste my time building granaries early at all?

    I can also promise you I am not alone with my views so please try and think about it... if playing peacefully I would say if your capital gets above 4 for the first 60-80 turns you really are not playing the most efficient game as it is by far the best strategy to pump settler big time. A good coastal position is better with a river mouth by +2 gold and later +4 production and that is why I will choose a river mouth for a coastal city.

    Most of my cities do not grow above 7-10 and that saves me having to build entertainment districts unless I choose some particular benefits. Growing cities too big is more an immersion thing in my view, wide is more powerful up to a point.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
  8. Silver 00

    Silver 00 Chieftain

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    Victoria please note I use the words like usually and probably. Not always. Adapting to your opponents is key to success.

    You are probably are right that you can get away with playing wide early on (especially against a computer). I am not trying to say that it is not possible to do so and win. As you pointed out you can win with a coastal city by expanding early on. If I really like the resources on the coast I too would probably do as you described. I am saying though if I had to choose between a coastal city with good resources and river city with good resources then my choice is obvious. Taking a few turns to move settler would be well worth it. If I do not see a river close by only then would I take a coastal city.

    I am very sure though that on Deity you (and others) have many times been cornered by civs starting around you. Or barbarians have destroyed you early on at some point. An early army lets you fight your way through this. I have found that trying to expand early on is very risky. Knowledge of the threats is very important. Early units let you identify them and deal with them. If you play with for example with 2 military units and try to expand (settle a city) you probably do not know everything that surrounds your capital city within 10 tiles radius.

    By being more militaristic in the beginning I have fought my way through the threats with a higher success rate. I have actually conquered civs on Diety on the first 100-150 turns. So in that sense I play wide too early on :).

    When I play I like to know what the threats and resources surrounding me are. If I know that a civ is sending an army at me and will arrive in 5 or 10 turns that may give me time to prepare for it. If they arrive "out of the blue" I will likely fail to protect the city. I would not have time to recall units or build defenses. Knowledge of the close resources is also very important . In early game horses and iron are both extremely important. Settling by them is key to success. Which is why if I do not see any horses try to find iron early on. I recommend waiting until you can see iron resources before deciding where to settle your next city.

    However, against a human opponent playing wide will likely to always fail. If I wanted to I could attack a close neighbor with 4-6 archers and 2 warrior early on and take all their city's.

    Victoria I like to play wide too. The difference is how we both get wide.
     
  9. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Moderator Action: I assume this is a request to change the title of this thread from "How to Win Every Time" to something like "How to Usually Win Most of the Time". Please let me know what wording you prefer.
     
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  10. Silver 00

    Silver 00 Chieftain

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    I think that the title is fine as is. For my first sentence in post is.

    Also, the people who read the title of the post are not dumb. I believe they know even without reading the first sentence that you can never win every time. That even when you do everything correctly you can still lose.

    I made the title to be catchy not deceptive.

    Do you still insist on moderator action?
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
  11. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    If you are asking whether we frown on "click bait" titles, the answer is yes. Do we fling around infractions for that sort of mildly anti-social behavior? Generally no. Here, your later post indicated to me a willingness to substitute a less misleading thread title (which, BTW, wasn't "catchy" unless by "catchy" you mean calculated to catch criticism for overstated claims).
     
  12. Silver 00

    Silver 00 Chieftain

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    No problem. Here is a list of new titles for this post. Choose one that amuses you.

    "How to Win Some Games and Not Be Anti Social" :goodjob: (me) :nono: (moderator)
    "Another Boring Beginners Guide" :sleep:
    "How to Win Every Time (Fine Print: This may not apply to every game)" :crazyeye:
    "WE ARE THE BORG. YOU WILL BE ASSIMULATED" :scan: (ok mayb not this one)
    "How to Become King of the World" :king:

    I am out of creative juice. Does anyone else have better titles for this post? Please share.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    @Silver 00 I will and do churn out 5 slingers before a settler , I'm still not huge and do just fine.

    I also stated I'll take some elephants on a jungle hill over a river 3 tiles away most of the time.

    I'm not saying there is anything wrong with what you say apart from asserting yours is the only way to go.

    How about a title like "an MP players view on starting"
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
  14. Silver 00

    Silver 00 Chieftain

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    I like the title Victoria.

    @Moderator
    Go with that as a title "A Multi-Player View on Starting"

    @Victoria
    The problems I have encountered in single player high difficulty is that the computer always attacks you early on. Also, the barbs can be annoying too. Even if I did survive the attack I am usually left further behind technologically and might not recover. I have tried the peaceful route; however, in those games unless I get at least 6-7 cities settled I am prone to fail. Settling cities is a challenge in Deity. Computers like to settle everywhere and they box you in. When I play wide (without conquering) I am also playing catch up against the AI opponent. They can be 10-15 techs ahead in the beginning. Once they are ahead they will attack again and losing even 1 city could spell your doom. Only by late game can I catch up and surpass.

    By contrast, today I played a game in Deity difficulty. I did a similar start as I described in first post. By turn 100 I had capture 2 out of 3 civs capitals. Technologically I was caught up. Had 10 Cities. I was in a stable position where I knew that winning was only a matter of time.

    I then played another Deity Game again. And again by turn 100 I had capture 2 of 3 civs capitals. Tech was caught up. I had 12 Cities. FYI one of the civs was Scythia and civ had horse resource (so double to production of horse units).

    The strategy I posted gives me consistent results. There is more to it then I can describe in a single post. If you or anyone else has questions about it I would be more then happy to answer.

     
  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Sure, I did say there was not an issue with yours, I also said you do not need fresh water to get 3 capital at T100 deity, well I don't have to and I am not a great player.

    You have to understand....
    what I like most about civ6 is there are valid choices, there is not one clear cut strategy
    Civ V became very dull for me because of the opposite, national college zzzzz

    When someone says you have to do something when I don't, I just have to point out that not true.
     
  16. Silver 00

    Silver 00 Chieftain

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    Play the game in anyway you find fun Victoria.

    I just wanted to post a strategy that has highest rate of success.

    I have found other posts like the One City Challenge that has a low rate of success, but people try to do it because it is fun.
     
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    That's what I disagree with.... you recommend loosing 6 production a turn for 3 turns to move to a location that will not be of any better value for the next 50 turns at a time when every ounce of production has an impact.

    I'm trying to be serious and put a decent argument across and I have even been conciliatory and said we can differ and you are just being dismissive and condescending.

    If you think about peoples discussions you may even find some are valid and you become a better person for doing so.

    If you think you are talking to an idiot you may look at such threads as this https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/to-hill-or-not-to-hill.606866/ rather than OCC which is quite different.

    This is a fantastic forum for learning but if you come and pontificate you will alienate.
     
  18. Silver 00

    Silver 00 Chieftain

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    I am sorry you feel that I have been dismissive or condescending. I have agreed with you on some points and I have some disagreements too. Obviously you (and others) have passionate views on how to play. The problem with posting is that respect is hard to convey with words alone. Unfortunately that is a limit I must learn to work in. Perhaps it does not always come through, but I do respect your views.

    As for your point
    That is a good point. In the short run or early game that may have an impact. I concede to your point on this. I did not understand your argument until you pointed this out. So perhaps I misunderstood your point from before.

    In earlier post you said
    When I was talking about coastal cities, I was talking about one without fresh water (which will start with 3 housing). One builder could potentially increase it to 4 housing; however, you would need to build a builder as first or second unit to avoid slower city growth. For example, going from 2 to 3 size would be slower with only 3 housing. My concern is that slower city growth will lead to a need to stunted growth in the beginning. Can you explain your point more?
     
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    It's the same thing. I will often find myself on a deity start in some jungle by the coast. About 3 tiles away is a river my warrior exposes.

    I have a choice of moving but where I am is likely have a few +2 production +2 food tiles and if I am on a hill that's a guaranteed +2 production in jungle. I can move to the river at the expense of 18 production.

    If I stay I can use a builder at some stage later after slingers to chop/ overpopulate to 7 easily and quickly. That's 3 districts I can place early.

    If I move then because it is a river mouth I can get +5 gold for a commercial district and +3 gold for a harbour which with a shipyard later is +3 production as well or an adjacency card on the harbour will be an extra 3 gold and 3 production... adjacency on the commercial is +5 gold.

    It's a lot to consider and if I was in that nice hilly jungle I would stay as the early boost is worth a lot. If not in jungle you have to assess what good tiles like +2 food +3 production you are leaving as well as loosing +18 production for slingers to get some excellent long term benefits. It's not an easy choice.
     
  20. Silver 00

    Silver 00 Chieftain

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    I am not sure I understand everything in your previous post. I will try to interpret it, but please correct or confirm if how I interpret it is correct or not.

    Does this mean that if you tried to settle by the river it would take 4 turns to accomplish it or 3 turns?
    4 production x 4 turns = 16 production
    4 production x 3 turns = 12 production
    I am probably not getting something...

    What turn are you usually at population 7? And how many slingers and other units do you create by that turn? Can you take us through a likely scenario on build order? I would like to try the build order myself. I will later tonight try my own version of it, but I feel that I am missing details. I have also used rainforrests as way to increase size and production of city. It is a very good strategy, but can also be costly. If done in beginning of the game, I would likely need to buy tiles to harvest or move citizen to work on once the jungle is gone to get best production and food yield.

    If I understand this correctly you are saying that the benefit of moving to river mouth is only much later in the game for increased gold and production. After all gold is a slow resource. And the shipyard is built in mid game. Please confirm that I got this right.

    Are saying that a coast city with 3 housing (beginning limit) is hard to boost in size when you do not have jungles to harvest to overpopulate the city. Only then you would need to consider moving.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017

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