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A new civ3 investigation needed: War Weariness

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Hygro, May 11, 2003.

  1. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    So we've (hah like I did any of this!) found out culture flipping, AI attitude, leaders, among others.

    Now it's time to thuroughly test how war weariness works down to the CORE (electrical superstorms!)

    Ideas would include seeing if a units ADM or experience status change things, how much losing cities matters, including size and number of nationals vs foreigners vs foreigners of your enemy, how much matters from simply being turns at war, how much police stations/US help, the differance between democracy and republic, the changes involving your troops vs. enemy troops in one another's lands.

    I am also curious to know if having war declraed on you doesn't actually reduce WW but negate it with "nationalism/war-happiness/tradtional enemy"

    Resources would probably include debug mode with PtW.

    Any takers?
     
  2. superslug

    superslug Still hatin' on Khan Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I'm sure before a full investigation is launched we could at least assemble already known facts:

    For instance, war weariness is at least delayed if war is declared on you, though for how long I'm not sure.
     
  3. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    I think I may try this. I'll start setting up a scenario now.

    Yes, if the AI declares war on you, you sometimes get 'reverse' war weariness, where you get happy people for awhile. I've been meaning to study that aspect, to see how long the reverse war weariness lasts. I believe that lasts for awhile, but then eventually that fades away and the true war weariness kicks in.

    I don't think unit values would affect things at all. Just who is taking casualties and who has how many units in the other's land, number of turns at war, pillaged tiles, republic vs. democracy, Universal suffrage, police stations, and if you are in multiple wars at the same time, that may compound the war weariness.
     
  4. superslug

    superslug Still hatin' on Khan Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I can assure you from personal experience that the 'reverse' weariness does indeed wear off. I forgot to formally end a conflict with someone I wiped out who respawned on an island too far away to bother with. When he contacted many turns later and begged for a treaty, it was immediately followed by dozens of WLTKD's. This has happened more than once...
     
  5. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Well, I think it's safe to say that how long you are at war does NOT affect war weariness......IF you keep all of your units at home, AND don't lose any, or let any tiles get pillaged.

    I'm at population size of 10 on chieftain (4 born content) with temple, cathedral, colleseum, no luxuries or no luxury tax. That should put me right at the happiness/unhappiness border (10 content people) meaning that just a little unhappiness will throw my city into disorder.

    I declared war at 3900 B.C. while in democracy. At about 1075 B.C. carthage finally sends 3 warriors into my territory (still no war weariness) and 2 commit suicide against my mech infantry, while the 3rd warrior fortifies right next to my city center tile (waiting for re-inforcements). Finally 1000 years later or so another warrior comes into my territory and commits suicide again, while that first warrior is still fortified inside my territory. AI units continue to come in slowly commiting suicide.

    I played up to 500 A.D. and still not any sign of war weariness (165 turns).

    I think I'm going to go to a tiny map instead of huge for my next test.
     
  6. widdowmaker

    widdowmaker Maker of Widdows

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    hmm. Try to have your mech infantry take their city. Also make sure there is only ONE variable. That is the only way to get accurate data.
     
  7. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Ok, did another test on a tiny map. Declare war in democracy at 3900 BC. I place a single warrior inside the AI's territory. I then continue to mess with their production-changing it to wealth (so they can't build a unit to kill my warrior).

    2430 B.C. (turn 33, or 31 turns after declaring war), suddenly I have 5 unhappy people in my size 10 city.
    It says 54% too crowded, and 45% 'give peace a chance'. But really all 10 should be 100% because of war weariness, since the improvements were just fine the turn before.

    Bump up luxury tax so everyone is content again, then at 1425 B.C. (61 turns after declaring war), I get another 5 unhappy people.

    bump up luxury tax again so everyone is content. 670 B.C. (92 turns after war started), democracy is overthrown without warning (everyone was content the turn before).
     
  8. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Chieftain

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    Great tests Bamspeedy! :)

    Can you reload to 690 B.C. and bring the city to size 11 to see if that prevents anarchy?
     
  9. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Oh, sorry, Dave, I already started my new test. I don't think I have a manual save, and of course the autosaves got over-written.
    Here is my second test:

    Ok, same test, but this time in Republic.

    2430 B.C. (same time as what happened in Democracy), I get 2 unhappy people (had 5 in democracy).

    1425 B.C. I get 3 more unhappy people, for 5 total unhappy people if I use no luxury tax. (I had 10 total at this time in democracy).

    90 B.C. (121 turns after war started-30 turns later than democracy reached this stage), I get 5 more unhappy.
    Bump up luxury tax and have to place some workers on the map to lay down roads for more commerce (I'm at 100% luxury tax).

    I played up to 1615 A.D. (311 turns after war started) and war weariness never got any worse.
     
  10. Hurricane

    Hurricane Sleeping Dragon

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    So can we draw these conclusions?

    * Having troops inside enemy territory is enough to trigger war weariness, even if they aren't attacked. The low WW you encountered is possibly because of these reasons:

    1) Number of units inside enemy territory matters: the more you have, the higher the WW. It is also possible that number of units has no effect at all (i.e. it is a simple yes/no switch).
    2) Killed units and lost (native?) cities are the most important reasons for WW.

    * While own units inside enemy territory creates WW, enemy units inside your territory does NOT create WW. The question of what effect pillaging has should be researched, however.

    The 30-60-90 turn WW effects you saw gives a hint that randomness only plays a small role in the WW calculations.

    EDIT: BTW, this post was in response to your first (democracy) test.
     
  11. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Thanks Bamspeedy, I was hoping you might be the one to invesitgate this as your analysis' are very accurate.

    30 turns worth of 1 soldier in enemy territory makes 5 people unhappy?

    My main goal is that since I now know all the concepts of the game, I feel I must know all numbers and formulae, and this one was starting to bother me.
     
  12. superslug

    superslug Still hatin' on Khan Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I stand corrected. Thanks, Bamspeedy!
     
  13. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Ok, I did the test again with 10 warriors in their territory instead of 1 and got the exact same results. Perhaps it goes by % of your military? In both tests I had 100% of my military in thier territory.

    Oh, and I tried preventing my democracy from collapsing into anarchy at 670 B.C., but I couldn't stop it. I got WLTK day and they overthrew my democracy on the same turn! Once you reach that 3rd critical level of war weariness, your democracy will fall.

    About the comments for enemy units in your territory. I tried testing that by placing 10 AI spearman in my territory, but they all ran home :(.

    Now I have to test what happens with casualties...
     
  14. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Chieftain

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    I just got a 30-turn WW jump with 25% of my army in enemy territory. So it looks like the 30 turns are constant.

    Changing governments several times during the war does not affect WW. At level 1 Republic always has 2/10 unhappy, Democracy has 5/10, and the rest have zero.
     
  15. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Chieftain

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    Some more testing:

    +2 for losing a unit
    +1 for ending turn with at least one unit in enemy territory
     
  16. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Ok, I did 2 more short tests, testing what happens when I suffer casualties. I'm going to call any measurements that affect war-weariness as war-weariness (WW) points.

    First test I placed a stack of conscript warriors in AI territory and gave them a tank to play with (and a spearman for defense, so they will actually attack with the tank). War started at 3900 BC (democracy). At 3450 B.C. (9 full turns of having units in their territory), I suffered 12 casualties. Perhaps casualties count as 2 WW pts, and being in enemy territory counts as 1? (9*1) + (12*2)=33, but considering the turn before I may have been at 28, just below or at the 30 WW pt barrier. I can't remember if on that final turn the tank was healing or killed 2 warriors. Maybe the first level of WW kicks in when you go over 30 WW points?

    Second test I placed on one warrior in AI territory each turn to replace the 1 that got killed. By 3150 B.C., I suffered 16 casualties. Since my only unit that was in their territory got killed during the AI's turn, it might be possible that it doesn't get counted as being in their territory. (16 casualties*2=32 WW points.) I did happen to defend successfully against a warrior they built (forgot to stop them from building it).
     
  17. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    :lol:
    Posted at the same time!
     
  18. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Chieftain

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    I tested Republic up to 500WW, and it doesn't get any unhappier or go into anarchy. To summarize Bamspeedy's earlier post..

    Republic:
    30WW 25% unhappiness
    60WW 50% unhappiness
    120WW 100% unhappiness

    Democracy:
    30WW 50% unhappiness
    60WW 100% unhappiness
    90WW Anarchy

    Police stations and universal suffrage do not slow down war wearieness, they just make 1 (suffrage) or 2 (police) unhappy citizens content.
     
  19. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Way to go Dave :goodjob: . I was burnt out from testing, because I thought the only thing left to do would be testing pillaging, which would be a time consuming task. I completely forgot about US and police stations :wallbash:.

    I'm surprised police stations are more powerful than Universal suffrage. That 1 content person in each city is nice, but not as great as it was hyped up to be.
     
  20. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Chieftain

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    Alright, I'm burned out too. :sleep:

    Someone can test captured cities along with pillaging. Also on the to do list: play a map larger than tiny. ;)
     

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