A New series: PYL I (Pick Your Leader)

[siggboy]

It certainly isn't the first time I've done it, although the use of spies made it so much more seemless. All the benefits of blitzkrieg warfare from mounted, less of the drawbacks of heavily defended cities.

I'm under the impression that espionage is overpowered in its current state. Not being an expert player myself, I fought some EASY wars in my game, much like you've described it (put spies in place, built up some EP in time then just roll over them with foot soldiers and some horses). I rarely touched the EP slider and did not have any wonders in place to help with EPs either -- actually I never planned for heavy spy use, I simply jumped at the opportunity.

Spies are sooo cheap to produce, and stacking two or three on an opposing city for a later revolt doesn't bear a lot of risk, either. Heck, you can even reuse them most of the time!

Compare that to the *ss slow cats/trebs, and at least one lost turn for each city having to bombard.

BTW, that were some impressive stacks of Cavalry you built there...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

With enough cities troop spam is pretty easy, and I do so like 50 unit stacks .

I'll put the rest in spoilers, just to be safe:

Spoiler :

IMO, it's not that espionage is overpowered per se', it's that the computer is terrible with it. Granted, running the GW early in the game would make espionage extremely painful to counter with the slider (almost impossible without damaging base tech badly). However, for anybody else merely running counter espionage and directing points at the person obviously (and it usually is) planting spies everywhere greatly increases both the chance of spies being captured and the cost of missions. If you look at my stats, it seems I lost alot of them anyway . For the entire game after my first war, I had a city making them. For about half of my warfare time, I had two.

That's a considerable investment in hammers, I admit (just look at the end game stats...I made 80+ spies and had 22 left! I could have used them slightly more efficiently, but nor much). However, since I ran the GW it made sense. Spies are cheaper than other military, usable all game, and WW free to lose. There's also the hammer costs associated with warring, and alot of that comes from AI's producing units DURING the war, which of course smearing through lowers. Faster wars tend to lead to less WW bloodshed too . However, pure mounted strategies do incur somewhat higher losses with tech parity, even with spies, so you either need a soft target, a LOT of troops, or a tech lead. This wasn't an issue for me most of this game because I leaned on the UU quite heavily, and that advantage + financial carried me through the entire game (with the requisite focus on the mounted troop techs for a lead in them of course!)

It's hard to say whether traditional stacks or heavy-handed speed wars with spies are better, IMO it's situational. If one has a powerful mounted UU though, I'd not rule out making tons of it and using spies...

Edit: I actually had enough EP to steal techs AND incite revolts, although the only way to do that with a 0% slider is via the great wall. Madscientist has showcased its use and settled GS's with SY and EP buildings quite heavily in 2 o his recent games, prompting me to consider such a strategy in a heavy war game .

 

[schwartz]

Bleys:
Thanks for organizing an excellent game, I had a lot of fun playing this one.
I had Wang Kon, Monarch and Normal speed:

Spoiler :

I didn't write this up as I played, so no screenshots, and not as much detail as normal.. Once I found Mansa close to me I axe rushed him to get some solid land to work with, I didn't particularly like Wang's start, considering the desert, but it was decent enough with Mansa not having metal. So I took out Mansa in around 100 BC and consolidated my land, but there was a small gap where I hadn't settled yet due to the economy, and Darius plunked down 2 cities right between my initial lands and Mansa's. Darius had a crazy tech rate for a monarch AI (faster than I've ever seen Mansa tech..) And I had to wait for tanks to take him down (He had no oil, or uranium) I got him down to 2 cities, but then Willem, the top AI, declared on me, followed shortly after my Pacal AND Liz (All Buddhists ) So I got crushed by the huge dogpile, not able to get my defenses back to the east in time.. I played this one pretty sloppy, but it was a very fun game anyway..

 

[Groogaroo]

Well my second attempt with Darius didn't go too well,

Spoiler :

tried rushing mansa with imortals! not such a great idea are skirmishers still classed as archery units? they just eat immortals for lunch!

Note to self : don't rush mansa!

I might try a third time, maybe with another leader.

 

[Diamondeye]

Wow this got on its feet real quick! One day with work instead of forums and a five-page thread pops up in your face. I won't be playing this one myself though, so I have freebies for looking in spoilers...!

And I won't be looking the entire threa through, so if Groogaroo or Jaaboo or anyone else needs some hints / a sparring partner when discussing city sites or strategies, you'll need to tell me so

 

[r_rolo1]

@Groogaroo

Spoiler :

Notice the str 4

 

[Gocho]

Willem 1000AD report

Spoiler :

Not a lot has changed, about to settle 4 of the last 6 cities in the next few turns at least.

Lib race won, didn't think I could hold out for another 30ish turns for steam power so I grabbed Chemistry.

Been stealing techs from Mansa and have a great spy headed to his lands to keep stealing. Tech situation is great. Undecided if I'll go for the free merchant or just keep beelining steam power.

And everyone (except Pacal, but screw him) loves me.

Not that it matters much on this map but I also got the circumventing bonus by maybe 2 rounds over Mansa. Undecided between going for a lazy culture/space win or going on a calvary/spy rampage. Willem's lands are just crazy good.

 

[Groogaroo]

@ Rolo

Spoiler :

Notice the str 4

Yeah... I know it was a pretty dumb idea. But I thought at least I might have atleast made a dent with immortals. Rushes ain't my strong point!

 

[siggboy]

@Gocho:

Spoiler :

Your game is developing quite similar to mine (except for that I took the land to the east in two wars from Pacal). If I was you I would either conquer Pacal or vassalize him. If you conquer his lands completely you are really close to domination already, then just gank any other civ depending on the diplo situation.

Going for an absurdly early space ship might be fun as well, but it will mean a lot of boring turn skipping.

 

[Gocho]

@Siggboy

Spoiler :

Yeah very similar games, the main reason I haven't gone to war is I want to put down the new cities first and see where the economy is. I'm pretty sure I could take the whole world going for cavs after steam power. It's certainly a weakness in my game that I don't push on war wise until the economy is reasonable and this would probably be a good game to have pushed it a lot more.

Sadly this isn't shaping up for to crazy of an early launch as the other AI's are lagging so far behind that I basically don't have any useful trading partners.

 

[Gocho]

Only being able to squeeze in an hour or so at a time slows it down lots but hey more updates!

Willem 1335

Spoiler :

Land all filled in!

Figured since I went all the way to steam power I might as well grab Assembly Line and try the infantry swarm!

Certainly the earliest I've gotten that before in the oddest beeline ever for me.

Had a coal pop, never seen resources like these side by side.

Figure a big civic swap is in order then the infantry swarm is on! Just need to pick a direction at this point.

 

[PreLynMax]

Me.
Protective, Expansive
The All Mighty PreLynMax Empire
Starting Technologies: The Wheel, Mining
Unique Unit: Ballista Catapult (Catapult)
Unique Building: Dark Palace (Palace)
Favorite Civic: Police State

Ballista Catapult Unique Unit for The All Mighty PreLynMax Empire
5, 1, 40
Doesn't receive defensive bonuses
Can withdraw from combat (25% chance)
Causes collateral damage
Can bombard city defenses (-15%/turn)
Starts with Barrage III

Dark Palace Unique Building for The All Mighty PreLynMax Empire
160
+2; +1 per population score +1; Marks the Capitol city of a Civilization

I just realized that my strategy is identical to Mao Zedong-- right down to the favorite civic!

 

[siggboy]

Gocho:

Spoiler :

This is seriously mental . You have Infantry in 1335 AD, good Lord. Your tech slider is at 70% so to me your Economy looks very healthy. If you go for domination now you will end up with a record score.

About what you said above that REXing and waiting for the economy to recover was a mistake: you've proven yourself wrong. You will win far, far earlier than some of the others here who went warmongering right from the beginning.

In my own modest attempt I took things slow as well, and never played with a cutthroat goal in my head (like beeline this or that); still I got a decent score with the reasonably early Diplomatic Victory. The point with Willem on this map is that you actually can hardly run into any serious problems -- the only possible issue I see is handling Hannibal in the wrong way (not going to war early and being backstabbed later, for example).

 

[schwartz]

Gocho:

Spoiler :

Really well played so far. Infantry that early is incredible and it looks like your economy is in pretty good shape as well. Looking forward to the rest of your game! It looks like going east through Pacal and Liz would net you domination but it's hard to tell for sure.

 

[Sleepless]

Elizabeth - 400 AD

Spoiler :

How to fall behind in techs

But all is not lost Hannibal eventually researched Alpha so I was able to trade something. Wouldn't give me any of the bigger techs.

I'm able to trade currency for mono as well

On the plus side I do get a good discount on learning techs other civs know. Haven't given up yet.

 

[Gocho]

Willem, end game domination.

Spoiler :

Infantry... march... slowly. Pretty sure this would have been faster with cavs as no one had any real army, still was funny fighting mainly muskets+maces with infantry .

Took Mansas barb city that was between me and Korea to the west then made peace with him as it would be a bit before I really got to him, of course the turn after peace,

Well that simplifies life I guess.

Korea wiped out.

Darius decides to declare war on me at this point well his capital was certainly where all the wonders were built.

Tiny army 2 moves in to the east.

And shortly after that domination is achieved in 1620.

I certainly built a few infantry!

Of course the one screenshot I can't find is the score but it came in a hair over 200k which is quite high for me!

Monarch is a strange difficulty for me, easy maps are very simple wins and bad maps are crushing defeats. Always fun to play Willem!

 

[Sleepless]

Elizabeth - 1325AD

Spoiler :

Tech situation as at 1325 AD

A long haul but starting to get back into the tech race. Trouble is with the happy tech club Willem/Mansa/Darius and Wan as soon as they get a new tech they trade it or give it away between them

Now I'm unsure whether to go for rifling and a bit of drafting or go for steel and try to trade for rifles. Good chance of trade if no-one goes for steel but if they do I suppose I can always draft muskets. Any ideas?

No-one has even had the decency to gift me a tech yet. Usually if your behind AI at pleased will occasionally give you a tech which is always a bonus. Tried scrounging but haven't been able to get anything. Financial and tight describes these AI. Lastly, having seen the map now I think Liz is a bit hard done by, by the start.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ Sleepless:

Spoiler :

you're asking US for advice ? Well, since you asked, I'll recommend the steel/grenadier line. Not only can you trade it for rifling if the AI stays away from it, but cannons and grenadiers hold up pretty well on the offensive right up until infantry. These are largely peaceful opposing civs and they'll tech pretty quickly, but their stacks won't be oppressive. You might be able to get through 1 or even 2 civs with grens/cannons (or rifles/cannons...pretty much anything + cannons) alone. The tricky part is getting cannons out quickly. I've often used some of my not traditionally production cities to make them just to get an extra couple, and had 1 city just whip whip whip them out too. Cannons covered by anything are extremely dangerous, as I'm sure you know . IMO rifles alone won't cut it as easily if you're planning on warring here. Even with some CR II/III rifles (which you can't really get any easier than CR II cannons), you still need something to drop cultural D, not to mention something to soften the CG rifles the enemy will have, or else you'll lose the rifles just the same.

IMO rifles are better for pressing a tech lead, where your enemies won't have much that can come even close to CR or even plain combat rifles (might need spies on the super huge D cities). As you don't have one, I'd recommend laying some hurt with the siege.

 

[Sleepless]

@ TheMeInTeam

Spoiler :

Yep went for steel and as you rightly pointed out I picked up Rifles/Const/Mil Trad and Astro in trade, not to bad for one tech . I must admit though I don't like the WFYBTA when there more advanced than you .

Played up to 1625. Everbody dogpiled Han so I thought I'd better join in as he was more backward than me. So I've now aquired a vassal. Wanted to take more of his cities but he was in danger of losing some to Mansa/Willem and Wan. Still quite behind in techs but I'll know better once I get Physics. Willem is just about to give me Assembly Line which could be a big mistake on his part as I feel I'm due to get another vassal shortly.

Quick view of the tech screen.

As I said Willem will give me Assy Line, Note Darius doesn't have it but won't trade with me because of WFYBTA limit.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Geez. Sleepless. Major props if you pull out a win. And I was thinking my situation with Wang was bad, and I was nowhere near as behind as you were.