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A Pondering - Accuracy VS Barrage

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gidoza, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    The other thread noting a bug in Barrage reminded me that I had a thought regarding these two promotions and whether they should be tweaked slightly.

    Presently, the second benefit of Accuracy is +10% ranged combat against units above 50HP, while Barrage gives the bonus from 50% hit points and below.

    The thing is - that it isn't super often that a unit with 20 hit points or less isn't just killed anyways from an attack, and thus the bonus from Barrage isn't making any difference here. So from a practical and realistic perspective, Accuracy is giving a bonus from the HP range of 51-100, while Barrage (most of the time) is giving the bonus from 20-50, which is a good 20 HP less than what Accuracy offers. In other words, Barrage is an inferior promotion.

    My simple proposal is that Accuracy would have its effect on units from 61-100 Hit Points, while Barrage would be effective from 60 hit points and below. I think this more realistically evens out the usefulness of both options.
     
    Jdoug312, lunker, StugLife and 3 others like this.
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Though barrage is where logistics promotion is. AI takes it for a reason.
     
  3. MorphBer

    MorphBer Chieftain

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    Yup, nice thoughts but barrage leads to logistics so it's clearly the better promotion line
     
  4. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    That's a fair statement in one way and I can't challenge it at the level you've provided. But it raises questions for me on another level - it's nice when promotions carry their own weight for their own reasons...I really shouldn't be taking Barrage for the sake of Logistics; I should be taking Barrage for the sake of Barrage's being useful to my present situation. It would be more interesting if the heavy-duty promotions like Logistics, Indirect Fire, and Range required slightly different things, like...

    #1 - They all require a minimum level requirement instead of a particular branch of the tree (ex. Logistics requires level 8 minimum, Range/Indirect Fire level 6 minimum)
    #2 - Additionally, Logistics would require the +1 Movement (Mobility) promotion and a higher level than any other promotion requires (it comes out of any tree and only needs the right level, so you don't "lose out" on experience points because you picked one tree over another and therefore are missing out on shooting twice per turn). It makes sense as a requirement as it is a logical prerequisite to Logistics.
    #3 - Additionally, Range would require the +1 Sight promotion (Sentry). Again - it's a logical predecessor, and it makes using the following ability a possibility without having other units as scouts.


    This seems like a more well-rounded approach to those sorts of things - that way, very basic promotions are used for the sake of which they're needed, while advanced promotions are more universally accessible, but require some specific things that would naturally be acquired due to being such a high level - but you have to sacrifice one of the more directly useful promotions in order to acquire it.
     
  5. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    The two trees are very well balanced right now. Logistics is good enough to hold up it's whole side of the tree, and the other side has a better base promotion and access to healing promotions easier.

    I don't think that the base promotions need to be arbitrarily as good as the others.
     
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  6. DarkZero

    DarkZero Chieftain

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    Barrage is also just better, mist of the time wen you are at a even war you dont want your melee units to move after a kill, so you finish units off whit raged units, and the barrage is the way go, wen you are winning or against barbarians you can afford to move after a kill but at that point in the war the difference between the promotions is not really that big, dont forget that cover promotion exists and that terrain can decrease your damage, your ranged unit may often fail to kill a 20 hp unit without barrage.
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I hvae a hard time reachng either logistics or ranged now that archers only earn 2 XP per turn at best

    Also, was the barrage bug fixed? I find my accuracy guys are dealing a lot more damage. Late game I can go barrage, but I find accuracy itself is better so I tend to stick with that line early on (ranged is great too, I prefer if to logistics when I have a big army)
     
  8. Infixo

    Infixo Warlord

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    It's been fixed.
    Until you find another one :)
     
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  9. StugLife

    StugLife Chieftain

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    Wouldn´t mind this.

    Offtopic: shouldn´t the promotion names be swapped? I mean, you need to be more accurate when there are less targets scattered around, ie. when the target unit is damaged. With more targets in formation, you would just have to aim at the general direction and there´s a good chance it will hit someone, even if not the original target. Just a minor annoyance.
     
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  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    We were asking this for ages, but habits hold hard.

    EDIT. I mean 'old habits die hard'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  11. lunker

    lunker Chieftain

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    I agree with this change. Barrage is a non-factor when the enemy is 10% or lower so the threshold should be moved up.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  12. Jdoug312

    Jdoug312 Chieftain

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    I totally agree with your logic here, but if you see them as branch names (like social policies are), accuracy leads to the +1 range promotion, while barrage leads to the double attack one. So in that sense, keeping them as-is makes sense too.
     
  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Even if the barrage line didn’t lead to better promotions, I would still choose it for one reason alone: the AI doesn’t consider hp >50 as a reason to pull a unit. If you want to secure the kill, the AI won’t turn tail until you can really hurt them, so that last 50HP is a rush down if you are aiming to kill.

    Sending a unit away covered in booboos has its advantages, but I don’t just want blood for the blood god; I want skulls for the skull throne too
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Yeah. That was the design. One for softening and supporting, the other for raw damage and finishing enemies off.
     
  15. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    It might be more interesting to diversify the two picks a little, then - as in, Accuracy gives the current bonus, while Barrage gives a flat +20% bonus to wounded units at 50 hit points and below (but no standard ranged bonus). Maybe my numbers are off, but you get the idea.

    EDIT: Correction made to this post as pointed out by pineappledan.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Lol, Heck no.
    Wounded would count all the way up to 99hp. You get 3 ranks of that and that is +60% CS for 90% of fights. You would just bloody the unit first with a melee hit and clean their clocks with ranged. You would never pick anything else. This also precisely works against our issue with how killing with melee puts you out of position
     
  17. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    Sorry, my bad - I meant to say "50 hit points and below." Wounded was not my intention. I have corrected the original post, just so you know. Basically, you'd have units that are good all-purpose units with Accuracy that cut stuff down to 50 and get a small bonus even below 50, while the Barrage crew chews things up even faster once they get there.

    That being said, it isn't obvious to me why there should be a branching at all between Logistics/Ranged (the mega upgrades) - again, this shouldn't be the reason to be choosing previous promotions.
     
  18. Grabbl

    Grabbl Chieftain

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    The branching is needed (and was introduced) to make it harder to get insane Range+Logistics units like in Vanilla. Before, you needed just 5 promotions to achieve this which is not that hard (150XP on standard). Now, you need 8 (360XP) which makes these units really rare and fairly late game.
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    TBH all of this sounds like a solution looking for a problem. The branches are very balance right now.

    G
     
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  20. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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