A question for "The RNG is Rigged" crowd

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Jokeslayer

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Why?

Not why do you think it is rigged. Why would it be? I just can't see why the game would be programmed that way (or if it was, why would the developers deny it? They're open about other ways the game is rigged against the player on high levels)
 
I'm not sure what you're asking, Jokeslayer. Are you asking why they've put so much randomness in the game?
I'm pretty sure Sid Meier thought it was fun getting surprised by a city flip instead of being able to calculate exactly when it will happen and where. I think so too; the surprises keep the fun in the game.
 
I can't say it any better than this:
It's all mathematics and probability (which comes back to mathematics ;)).

The biggest problem is most people don't really grasp what random numbers are really like. A truly random set of numbers can easily generate a series of terrible losses for the player. And cognitive bias rears its ugly head, when we don't give equal credence to the times we inflict just as unlikely losses to the AI.
 
I'm not sure what you're asking, Jokeslayer.

I'm pretty sure the question could be phrased: "Since you believe that the pRNG is biased against the the human player, what reason do you think the creators of the game could have to make rig it that way?"

And I think Jokeslayer has a very good point when he says:
I just can't see why the game would be programmed that way (or if it was, why would the developers deny it? They're open about other ways the game is rigged against the player on high levels)
 
Since it's a pRNG and not a true RNG, it is by definition "rigged".
 
Since it's a pRNG and not a true RNG, it is by definition "rigged".

Depends on your definition of "rigged". ;)

The pRNG used in the Civ series (since at least Civ2) has been demonstrated to behave in a manner that mimics true "randomness" extremely well. The only real difference between it's results and true random numbers is, when you feed it a given seed, it will, like any pRNG, output the same sequence of values.

The problem most players have with it is that it is too truly random: it does not match their pre-conceived notions of "randomness".
 
Pyrrhos said:
Since it's a pRNG and not a true RNG, it is by definition "rigged".

Sure. "Rigged" so that it behaves *as if* it were random. In other words, it doesn't work out as "rigged" in favor or against the human player. So, your use of "rigged" here comes out as meaningless.
 
What a pointless thing to say. Just because it's a pRNG doesn't mean it's rigged against the human.

I did not say "Rigged against the human player". I said "rigged". Period.

The point of the comment may escape you, but the way you worded your "question" makes it a dig against people who do not share your opinion. You're quite clear on that. As a matter of fact, it is rather rude to lump them together as ""The RNG is Rigged" crowd". But I shall explain:

"Rigged"
A pRNG is not a true random generator but a pseudo RNG, which means that it emulates a RNG. It does this by being a long "string" or "list" of numbers, one of which is used for round one, then the next for round two etc etc. It is, in fact, a predetermined series of randomly generated numbers that have been checked to make certain that once in a while an Army will be defeated by a lone pikeman. Thus it is rigged!

"Rigged against the human player"
I do not suscribe to that view as such. But the programmers have told us that they have fixed the problem of a runaway civilisation prevalent in Civ I. Have you ever played a game where you are well into the modern age and the AI civs are mostly stuck in the IA? Then you will have come across the phenomenon of being hit with a greater number of pollutions per turn in spite of having both RC & MTS built with Hoover Dam / Nuclear Power Plants and a far lesser number of pollution triangles than you had in the late IA. Furthermore, the pollutions seem to have a great affinity for tiles with resources as these seem to be hit far too frequently in relation to their actual number.

This, and similar occurrences, are a result of the checks put in against a runaway civ. As it usually is the human player who is ahead, players should be excused if they feel that the game is biased against the human player when in reality it is against the runaway civ which just happens to be the human player.
 
Then you will have come across the phenomenon of being hit with a greater number of pollutions per turn in spite of having both RC & MTS built with Hoover Dam / Nuclear Power Plants and a far lesser number of pollution triangles than you had in the late IA. Furthermore, the pollutions seem to have a great affinity for tiles with resources as these seem to be hit far too frequently in relation to their actual number.

Holy @#$! So thats what that is. I knew it was crap that pollution would hit the same mined iron mountain tile next to a river like four times in a row... now it makes sense why. Curse you, Sid! Curse you for ruining my trade rep with pollution!! Curse you for causing me to need 35 workers dedicated entirely to clean-up every turn in the modern age!!! :cry:
 
I did not say "Rigged against the human player". I said "rigged". Period.

Yes. I can read too. But I think you might be in the wrong thread. (Not that I'm saying you can't derail the thread a little, feel free to do just that. But what I'm trying to make happen is for people who believe the game is rigged against them to ask why it would be that way. I admit I don't believe that; I actually believe it's a pretty dumb idea. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth looking at)

The point of the comment may escape you, but the way you worded your "question" makes it a dig against people who do not share your opinion.

OK. So I think the people with the opposite opinion to me have a dumb opinion. (note, not because their opinion is opposite to mine, but because of what the opinion is) I can offer you a hug if it'll make you feel better.

As a matter of fact, it is rather rude to lump them together as ""The RNG is Rigged" crowd".

No it isn't. Get over yourself. I would've listed them by name, but I don't know them all. Some of them hide behind pseudo-intellectualism (and if it's the use of the word crowd that you see as rude, which I suspect it is, get over yourself and stop trolling)

But I shall explain:

I'm honoured, I'm sure.

"Rigged"
A pRNG is not a true random generator but a pseudo RNG, which means that it emulates a RNG. It does this by being a long "string" or "list" of numbers, one of which is used for round one, then the next for round two etc etc. It is, in fact, a predetermined series of randomly generated numbers that have been checked to make certain that once in a while an Army will be defeated by a lone pikeman. Thus it is rigged!

I'm sorry, your staggering "intelligence" is confusing me.

For the bold part: of course a pikeman will sometimes beat an army. It's what random does. Nobody sat there, grinning gleefully, because they'd get to screw you over. And even with what you've said, it doesn't make it rigged, since the outcome is not predetermined in favour of one side or the other.

But the programmers have told us that they have fixed the problem of a runaway civilisation prevalent in Civ I. Have you ever played a game where you are well into the modern age and the AI civs are mostly stuck in the IA? Then you will have come across the phenomenon of being hit with a greater number of pollutions per turn in spite of having both RC & MTS built with Hoover Dam / Nuclear Power Plants and a far lesser number of pollution triangles than you had in the late IA. Furthermore, the pollutions seem to have a great affinity for tiles with resources as these seem to be hit far too frequently in relation to their actual number.

This, and similar occurrences, are a result of the checks put in against a runaway civ. As it usually is the human player who is ahead, players should be excused if they feel that the game is biased against the human player when in reality it is against the runaway civ which just happens to be the human player.

It's my understanding that the enormous waste/corruption levels are the main check against a runaway civ. I'd like to see some proof of your assertions that pollution also does that, because it's frankly untestable (even more so than combat outcomes). You may be right (I'm highly skeptical), but I'd like to see where you got the information.

The bolded part is just more cognitive bias, the same sort that produces the persecution mentality of people who think the combat is biased against them.

Lastly, are you asserting that combat results are modified against the runaway civ as well? Again, if you are (I genuinely can't tell), I'd like to see some proof.
 
Thank you for that response Jokeslayer! Watch Pyrrhos come back and say some nonsense about "blatant lies" and then Turner closes the thread.
 
Or Turner closes it before someone else can chime in and earn themselves some infractions.
 
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