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A Question Regarding Tactics

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by je355804, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. je355804

    je355804 Chieftain

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    Eric B et al.; have you found a "optimum" ratio of science/gold/culture/religious cities? I know you said you typically have but one culture based cities. What about the other types?

    I never thought of this solution before, and I think it will solve many of the problems I've been experiencing in my higher difficulty setting games. I've been trying to make EVERY city, the perfect city. Rather than allowing each city to be good at one particular facet of the overall society. Do you tend to have any cities which are "jacks of all trades" so to speak?
     
  2. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    You can't specialize much early on, it's more a midgame thing. Apart from that, some cities have capacities beyond their primary role, while others struggle and need support like internal trade routes. I don't have more than one science city because population growth is limited by happiness anyway. I rather maximize science by rationalism-boosted trading post cities in jungle with universities.
     
  3. EricB

    EricB Prince

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    It really depends on what kind of game you are playing. If you are going tall then none of this matters, so I assume you're talking about a wide empire with tons of cities.

    Early in the game you're just looking for the best city sites that are next to new unique luxuries or maybe next to natural wonders. Typically, my first city is going to be a mega gold city and future religious holy city. This way it can spread the religion via trade routes. It is going to be in a great location by default as the map script (Communitas map) selects it. This city is going to grow to a decent size since it's founded so early but other cities will soon surpass it in population. Having that gold city going up early means that you're never going to be hurting for cash. This means you can buy buildings for other cities to get them up and going.

    The 2nd city depends on situation and terrain. If there are threatening neighbors close by then I look for a good location with a unique luxury and lots of production tiles around. Sometimes you just do the best that you can if the terrain isn't co-operating. If no one else is close to my starting location and I'm pretty isolated, then I'll make that 2nd city a science city. If I plan on trying for a culture victory then maybe a culture city. Really a science city and a culture city have the same type of terrain. Lots of food.

    For a science city or a culture city I build tons of farms. Ideally it has fish or wheat or some other food resource around (or multiple food resources). Grasslands and fresh water are good for science cities. For a culture city I build farms and mines along with lumbermills. You want it to have some production so that it can build wonders. Science cities have the lowest production. For a gold city, being on a coast is very good. You want it to have multiple luxury resources around (unique or not doesn't matter). You just want the gold from those tiles. City sites for a gold city or a science city will look pretty similar. The distinguishing feature really is resources. If it has luxury resources make it a gold city. If not, it's a science city. Also, strategic resources help for a gold city too because they help your trade routes. For a gold city, I'll build a minimal number of farms to let the city grow. You want lots of villages. You only build villages around gold cities. You won't see them around production or science cities, with the exception of jungle tiles. Actually the presence of lots of jungle tiles points towards making it a gold city.

    So, when I found a city I know what type of city that city will later become. I get workers to build improvements on the tiles around it corresponding to what type of city that city will be. In the city screen I leave it on a default focus until it gets to around size 10-12. When it reaches that size, I tell it to specialize on whatever type of city it is. As for what buildings to make in the city, you want food buildings in every city such as a lighthouse or granary. Military and production buildings go in the production cities. Science buildings go in the science cities, etc. If a gold city for example has a caravansary, market, bank, and any other gold enhancers along with food buildings and it can't make any other buildings like this, then I'll usually tell it to make a building that will help with making a national wonder in another city. It should build something like a smith so another city can build the corresponding national wonder. Science and gold cities do not make military units outside of an emergency. The exception is very early in the game when your capital builds some military units.

    Your production cities are responsible for building your army and navy. They need to have a barracks, armory, and military academy. They focus on food first, then production, then military buildings. They are going to be cranking out one unit after another. Most of the units built will be defensive units to defend other cities, especially if you're going to be militaristic. Your offensive units will rarely die on the battlefield if you conduct wars right. You also have to build lots of ships to patrol the oceans to protect your trade routes and keep an eye on other civs. I've been playing a game recently where there have been massive naval battles and I've lost some ships (though the enemy lost even more ships), so the production cities and built lots of ships.

    As for the balance of how many cities I'm not sure. Usually it seems like the most numerous types of cities are science cities for me. Second is production cities. Third is gold cities. Probably 50% of them are science cities. You don't need a lot of gold cities since the capital is a gold city 90% of the time. If I were to guess the percentages, then maybe 10-20% are gold cities. There's only 1 culture city (although other cities build culture buildings too). Maybe 50-60% are science cities. Maybe 30-40% are production cities.

    I may have to change my strategy for building not too many villages though because recent changes in the mod seem to be making them overpowering. I may have to nerf them a bit because gold does seem to be too plentiful in the game right now. I prefer a game where things are scarce and you can't just have it all.
     
  4. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    The newer version, if you haven't gotten it, at least delays the village gold change from +1 to +2 to a bit later in the game.

    Otherwise, I'd say that is about how I'd play it with mostly science+production and then spam gold once those seem to be up and running.
     
  5. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    Guys, I am glad this post was started and you provided these answers. Thanks.
    I am still playing the game like I did when I first started playing on easier levels, somehow I need to change the mindset to be more focused on the purpose of what each of my cities is.

    It must be just dumb luck that I have managed to win a few games recently on Emperor level.

    To have it explained in such an easy manner makes me go :hammer2:.
     
  6. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    It might be a civ4 tradition. City specialization seemed way less important to me when I switched to civ5.
    It's also an expansion thing. This kind of focused trade city only appeared through trade routes, while the introduction of guilds allowed for a culture city in it's current form. Religion wasn't there in v1.0 either.
     
  7. EricB

    EricB Prince

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    When you play with a tall strategy and few cities, then all of your cities can be good at everything.
     
  8. Zaldron

    Zaldron King

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    I don't play with policy saving and I can count on one hand the number of policies I've had to pick that I didn't want. If optimal gameplay is to hold back a bunch of policies (and I don't think it is) we should of course address *that*.
     
  9. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Since days, I'm trying to understand the concept of having more than one science city, but no real success. What do you mean by it (@those who play this way)?

    Is it a city specifically maximizing population? Or one running all possible science specialists? If it's the first case, do you have so much spare happiness?
    Maybe I just can't understand it because I'm often expanding as much as the happiness limit allows....


    I mean, sure, everyone probably has the national college city he probably specializes around science. But for all other cities, isn't it just about having a library + university + .... in every city?
    Admittedly, for a wide player, it gets increasingly tough to have all available science buildings in every city. But doesn't cramping together all my citizens in megacities that eat up all my valuable happiness defeating the whole purpose of going wide?

    I'm confused. Please explain your strategy around science in more detail!
     
  10. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    @Tomice, there's several options to that.

    1) Cities with science from natural wonders. Early on this makes for a "science" city other than the national college (or a place for it). It's not much, but it's often more than a wide empire is going to get from most secondary cities for a while.

    2) Couple cities with maxed scientist/high growth potential. Happiness is typically easier to come by by the middle of the game and cities with lots of food bonus tiles are typically easy to grow or deploy specialists. Using specialists helps defer growth too until happiness is less of an issue.

    3) Rationalism tree makes villages/jungle into helpful science producers. Even gold specialized cities can become productive science areas.

    4) In some sense it's a question of prioritizing what buildings are bought or constructed first, so library-university-school-lab goes up before smith-workshop-factory say, as well as market-bank-stock.
     
  11. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Thx, Mysticx! Priorities are a good point, I found that there's is more delay than I thought before all my TP cities build up their science buildings... I also didn't pay enough attention to specialists. I didn't give them much attention so far, for example 3:c5production: at the cost of 2:c5food: isn't very impressive. But with the 2 science from rationalism and the halved food consumption from freedom they get way more interesting (5 science for 1 food)!

    Also before it should help a lot to combine universities and science specialists in cities that have another source of science as well (observatory, national wonder, jungle,...). This way, the university doesn't only boost science from population, but it also adds 1 extra science to the specialist (+33% = 4 instead of 3) and boosts all those other sources as well.

    Still have to test out the details in practical gaming, any further suggestions are much appreciated!
     
  12. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    I would also use this as a point that scientists and engineers at least should be weaker on yields and more about great people generating (in natural terms anyway). 2 yield base and 3 GPP. The 3 production engineers are better than mines for a chunk of the game plus give great engineers for wonders. It should be more of a trade off augmenting (or even decreasing) existing production rather than replacing it. Artists and merchants (especially merchants), I am a little less worried about, but the same argument applies.
     
  13. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Have you ever kept track how many GP points go wasted? I mean those generated in cities that will never pop out a great person because the generation is so slow that the never reach the ever-increasing threshold?

    If GP points from all cities would fill a common pool, things would be easy to balance. But since it's per-city, I find it tough judging if GP points in smaller, secondary cities are really worth anything.

    This is even more difficult because Great Scientists/Engineers/Merchants have a shared threshold (regular Great Scientist generation prevents us from ever getting Engineers or Merchants because the threshold increases for all three).
     
  14. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    I can see that as an issue...

    That problem doesn't really go away at 2/3 instead of 3/2 (it's just fewer wasted points at 2 GPP) and the problem then becomes that the specialists are often better than regular yields.

    There's less of a trade-off for using them and it basically eliminates the need for mines in some cases (in favor of farms or villages).
     
  15. EricB

    EricB Prince

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    When I have a city that is a science city, it's just a term that means it's going to prioritize science over other things. It's going to have low production and low gold. It's going to build food buildings and science buildings. It'll also build culture buildings, defense buildings, and happiness buildings. But it won't build production buildings, military buildings, wonders, or gold buildings. Only if every thing else is built will it build one of those things. The tiles around the city will be farms and mines. I might throw in a lumbermill here and there, but those tiles will usually be made into farms as well. It's only going to employ specialists once the city is large enough (around size 12) and generally once it has built a university. A science city is kind of the default for a city if it's in a location with not much productive capacity and not many luxury resources.
     
  16. Anastase Alex

    Anastase Alex Warlord

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    I would love to see someone do a high level lzt's play with Communitas...
     

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