A question to Communists:

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Emperor2, Jun 30, 2007.

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  1. A Viking Yeti

    A Viking Yeti Carnal Leviathan

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    Animals in captivity, provided with an abundance of food, rarely if ever eat to the point of morbid obesity.

    I never disagreed that, when it comes down to either me or you starving, I choose you. Just that, given enough, I instinctively choose neither.

    That's more statement than fact. And no, they couldn't always leave. I recall a set of steel mills where food and housing and such was deducted directly from pay. But they set pay specifically lower than cost, so they couldn't leave until they paid their debt, which they could never do. This was considered legal until the labor day revolution. Regardless, that's not what happened. Workers left jobs, and then demanded that the government impose working conditions on business. Ergo, they limited, to a considerable extent, the freedom of the market. That is inherently socialist in nature; therefore, the livable conditions of employment now are due to socialist imposition on the private enterprise. Not that anyone in the US is willing to call it that, but by definition that's what it is.

    I read the specific study I was referring to in Scientific America, and, if I ever have time to go through the innumerable issues I have, I may cite it. However, I don't really care... You seemed to take that statement more seriously than I meant it. Sorry if I came across like I was trying to insinuate that you have to be conservative to be stupid. I was more making a play off the statement that communist are usually teenagers.

    By the way, libertarianism is defined as small government... My freedoms end at the tip of your nose idea. Also referred to as classical liberalism, I believe. But that's all semantics...

    Then I suppose nuclear weapons say quite a bit for the species as a whole. Kind of a myopic view of survival...

    Because Americans are complacent and the idea of democracy keeps us hoping that in two-to-four years they'll be able to do something about their grievances. And you stated, in defense of the ultimate power of authority, war as an example. I.e. soldiers went to war even if it was unpopular. I contend that they do so in order to avoid a prison sentance; same with protestors. Maybe the US overwhelming military expenditures kinda' discourage revolution... Maybe it's survival instinct.

    Um... You kinda' totally missed the point there. Obviously they either had scholarships or loans... ...In any case, lots of people :cry: about it. If they hadn't, why would we have scholarships and pell grants and such?

    No, they're not... Case in point, India... ...But I suppose that's another one of the broken-clock exceptions you simply have no refutation for, eh? I mean, if human nature is the way you say it is, Cuba should be in absolute desolate poverty... But, statistically, it's not.


    Caring about the benefit of the species and the overall well-being of our race is manipulation? That's just... Really cynical.

    I wouldn't disagree with the initial statement, however...

    http://www.worldfoodprize.org/assets/YouthInstitute/05proceedings/Jefferson-ScrantonHighchool.pdf

    It seems to be intrinsically connected to poverty. So, if you consider poverty to self-inflicted, then your statement is true. If you do think people choose to be poor and that it is in no large part the economy's doing, then you're very, very wrong. I grew up in a trailer park, and I can say, just from first hand experience that it's not something they (we, to be honest) choose to be in.
     
  2. A Viking Yeti

    A Viking Yeti Carnal Leviathan

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    $12,000, according to the International Monetary Fund. You're ignoring the cost of living. I lived better on $5.55 an hour in Kansas than I do here in Denver on $8.00. Unfortunately, global indexes on living standards are not really available, and the best estimates vary a lot (yay for economics... :rolleyes: ). It's estimated to be about a third or a half of the US COLA... Though I cannot vouch for such estimates' accuracy (obviously). In any case, $11k a year is then equivalent to about $40-50k relative to the global cost of living; that's upper-middle class, and not half bad either. Honestly, I'd rather see that than the wealthiest 200 people in the world making as much yearly as the lowest 538 million... That just seem absurd and inherently negative.
     
  3. A Viking Yeti

    A Viking Yeti Carnal Leviathan

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    Check the post below the one that I am now quoting... That is, as of 2002, yes, nearly as many people in this country suffer from food insecurities as from morbid obesity, making that particular statistic all the more sickening.
     
  4. mdwh

    mdwh Deity

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    Yes, but the situation where a resource is in _abundance_ isn't really important. The question is, how do you distribute resources that are not in abundance? Saying that people will not be greedy so long as it is in abundance doesn't really help - an economic system that only works for abundant resources isn't much use.
     
  5. A Viking Yeti

    A Viking Yeti Carnal Leviathan

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    2003, internationally, 10 million people. All time record, look it up.

    I don't own a car, I do use public transit, and I've been living in a studio apartment. $200k at $8 an hour, 40 hours a week, with an average of 20% tax, saving a full third of what I make would take about 670 days. Since rent makes up about 80% of my income, and living costs (food and cat food) another 10%, it would take me three times that. A student loans is really my only option then (massive debt that I'm hoping I can pay off).

    Don't 'effin' act like I'm just whining. I'm point out an inherent inequality in capitalist society that is obviously self-perpetuating. I mean, you think it would be so hard for me to get into college if I was born rich? How is the system rewarding me for my hard work if it's harder for me to get through college busting my arse than it is for the offspring of some wealthy elitist who never really needs to lift a finger for it?! Is that fair or just? Is that pay proportionated to my output? You can act like it isn't a problem, and the market economy functions just fine, but when it comes down to it, statistics don't lie. 1925 GDP growth rate: estimated 13%; 2006 GDP growth rate: 2.3%. 1960 global disparity ratio: 3 to 1; 2004: 72 to 1. The system isn't functioning, hasn't been function, and will not be functioning any time in the near future.
     
  6. Dark_Ownage

    Dark_Ownage Chieftain

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    It's the same thing as slavery how can you not support it, It helps the person with the slave boosts the ecnonomy etc. Capitalism and we are trillions of dollars in debt you make no sense.
     
  7. A Viking Yeti

    A Viking Yeti Carnal Leviathan

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    Um... Yeah it does. The US produces enough food to feed itself twice over and Ethiopia. I'd call that an abundance. We have 4% of the global population, and about 38% of the global wealth... ...Humanity has been, since the start of the industrial revolution, entering a post-scarcity era in relation to basic necessities. Yes, this isn't true of every, or even most, countries on Earth. It's almost universally true amongst the industrialized nations, however; so, when the third world nations industrialize, well... You probably get my point by now. I don't disagree that capitalism was necessary, just that it is quickly becoming obsolete (as is indicated by an number of economic measures).
     
  8. A Viking Yeti

    A Viking Yeti Carnal Leviathan

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    I'm not sure I understand you. Sorry, the grammar use is confusing, could you please rephrase that?
     
  9. Dark_Ownage

    Dark_Ownage Chieftain

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    Look how slavery has done it is the building block of every developed country without it it would not exist, slavery works period. Why don't we support that? Capatilism has only put countrys in trillions of dollars in debt and create this imaginary money aka inflation.
     
  10. Fugitive Sisyphus

    Fugitive Sisyphus Escape Artist

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    Huh? :confused:

    Again I am not talking about Ethiopia and Haiti.
     
  11. mdwh

    mdwh Deity

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    There's more to resources than food. As I said, an economic system that is only good for how to distribute things that are in abundance isn't a very useful economic system. That's the _easy_ bit!
     
  12. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

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    Taking a break from the big long posts to do a couple of short zingers: I don't support slavery because capitalism works better. It provides better incentive and is a lot less cruel. Well, actually, that was my second-biggest reason. My first biggest reason is because I just plain think slavery is despicable.
     
  13. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

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    Here's a second quickie. I came up with this one years ago, but forgot it until somebody in here mentioned their displeasure with the existence of an upper class.

    Your own brain weighs around two pounds. Yet it receives about 25% of the ENTIRE body's blood supply. Divide brain weight into the weight of your entire body, and you'll discover your brain receives something like TWENTY TIMES its "fair share".

    The brain doesn't actually do anything. Your brain is a fat and lazy CEO; he sits around on his fat ass and tells everybody else what to do. Surprise--it's the most important part of your body, by far.

    The unpleasant truth (brace yourselves, this one is REALLY gonna sting!) is that some people in the world really are more important than others.
     
  14. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

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    For some perverse reason, I got some hearty laughter out of the part where a bunch of you were talking about me behind my back. :)

    Yes, I have issues, and no, I'm not cool.

    I used to be an obscenely nice guy. I was trained by my parents to be a good boy, follow the rules, be nice to everybody, etc etc etc. Then I spent forty years trapped in the real world, where I very reluctantly and very painfully found out that those rules do not work. If you are an honest person, you will not get treated fairly and you will not be protected by the system. How do you think I'm going to react to that???

    What's wrong with me? I'm turning into an ordinary person like all of you. Stanley Milgram should be a stern warning to every last one of you of what you people are capable of. Listen to his words, and listen good.


    On the coolness part: I don't wear rock-band T-shirts, I have zero body piercings, I keep my hair neat and closely trimmed, I shave every goddamn day, I only drive five miles an hour over the speed limit, I actually use my turn signal, I wear expensive leather shoes, and I avoid drinking at parties. I am not cool. The closest I get to cool is that I like blue jeans. But they're uncool blue jeans because they are not torn or faded anywhere and they are not a foot too long in the legs.

    Oh, and here's some MAJOR uncoolness: I play Guitar Hero 3. And like it. Nerd factor nine, Captain! :D

    No, I'm not too good for you knuckleheads (gee, there's that word again). I'm just another knucklehead like you. And no, I'm not too cool for you. I'm the King of Uncool. If I disagree with you, it's for actual reasons. I don't expect those reasons to make sense to everybody, because everybody thinks differently.


    I hope I freaked out everybody in here. Screwing with peoples' minds is one of my hobbies. :D


    Edit: Something else I should add--in the last few years, as my degeneration into a cynical jerk (yes--to whoever made that accusation, I am in fact cynical) steadily progressed, my dating life has improved significantly. Women will never say it, but here's how it really works: women don't want nice. They want confident and assertive. Show them confidence and assertiveness, and they'll respond to you in spite of themselves.

    Sucks, doesn't it? I'm a jerk and acquired a very nice lady friend as a direct result.
     
  15. greenpeace

    greenpeace Peacelord

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    HAHA, thats a funny, but completely useless analogy. Except its kind of depressing when you think about even more. I mean As Viking Yeti said, the top two hundred people make what 536 million people make. Are each of those wealthy people worth a million times more? In fact, how are they at all more worthy? Why do we need people to have people with such huge power and wealth (which they gained on their ability to manipulate money)? Why can't the common people hold the power and wealth of that elite group?
     
  16. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

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    For the same reason your brain is vastly more powerful and wealthy than the rest of your body.
     
  17. greenpeace

    greenpeace Peacelord

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    Its not exactly behind your back, but hey I don't really see any issues (addressed below).
    I completely agree with you that you should not conform to societies ideals of "nice guy" because your parents indoctrinated you to become one. Of course, I"m not saying you should harm people, I'm just saying that doing things because you were told to is illogical and perhaps immoral.
    What do you mean by ordinary? I would deffinently support being natural you for thats ordinary on an absolute scale, but I see it as wrong to conform to society to achieve relative ordinary (but I think I misunderstood that statement).

    Awesome! If thats the way you live and you do not conform to social norms than you and I agree completely on that point. I also make no attempt to be cool (except, what I naturally want is different from you, but whatever edit: actually were pretty similar accept hair and guitar hero [althoguh I am a nerd, if I do say so myself]).

    I'm in the exact same mindset as you (in this paticular case). Except, I don't like screwing with peoples mind, but whatever.

    edit:
    But why must there be a brain? Why can't the body rule itself (in the figurative sense of course). The body is naturally inferior in calculating than the brain, but there is no real master race inbetween humans. I mean a better analogy is like a small group of brain cells trying to rule over the rest of the brain (not perfect but more accurate).
     
  18. A Viking Yeti

    A Viking Yeti Carnal Leviathan

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    Yes, and neither am I... The statistic only counts working individuals. So, 37.5 million employed and suffering food shortages, 7 million homeless or in transitional housing, and 9.25 million unemployed, 4.5 living on misc. benefits (i.e. not totally penniless, but not technically working) is 58.25. 58,250,000 divided by the 2002 US population of 281,000,000 is about 21%. I round up to 25% because it is almost universally accepted that homeless counts are underestimates (simply because it's hard to count people who don't have an address).
     
  19. A Viking Yeti

    A Viking Yeti Carnal Leviathan

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    Heh... Something we actually agree on, :D. Though, I think he's mostly stating it in principle, not in the literal sense.
     
  20. A Viking Yeti

    A Viking Yeti Carnal Leviathan

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    :lol: ...Um... Because your brain dies without that much oxygen. And for the same reason, the brain makes sure every cell in the body also survives, has everything it needs, even if it's not being used. That's a really sad biological analogy... You should've thought that one over better.
     
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