A Question to Historians: what unit do you think of when you think of Spain?

[Kryten]

I want to add the Spanish to civ3 but I cannot think of a unique unit for Spain. After all, when you think of :-
Rome, you think of Legions.
Greece , you think of Hoplites.
Egypt, you think of Chariots.
Mongols, you think of Horse Archers.
Spain, you think of....what?
All I can think of is Spanish Galleons (which are just armed merchant ships) and Conquistadors (ok for the New World, but had no effect in Europe).

So, can anyone else think of what unit the Spanish are well known for? (I understand that during the period of the Spanish 'Golden Age', say 1500 to 1600, they used a military formation called the 'tarraco', but I know nothing else about this formation). Can anyone help me?

 

[Beam]

Why not use Conquistadors? Historical accuracy is not the strongest point of Civ and in reality Roman Legionairs never had to fight Zulus, Americains, Chinese etc.

For the UU capabilities I suggest to make Conquistadors an upgraded Knight, probably not correct from historical perspective but making it a very attractive proposition!

 

[sgrig]

Although I'm not a historian, I agree that the Conquistador should be Spain's UU.

However, I think that it should an upgraded musketeer rather than Knight, because Spain's conquests took place mainly in the 16th century, by which time firearms were already widely spread and knights were made obsolete.

I would suggest the Conquistador to be a musketeer with movement 2.

 

[Beam]

Agree with sgrigs reasoning and movement 2 is a very good capability, also from historical perspective. The Spanish brought horses to the new world and so movement was an advantage!

An attack factor of 2 however is not very good for an offensive UU so I would suggest 3 and Iron as a requirement (to be balanced with the French UU).

 

[Kryten]

Thanks for the input people.

I'm not really happy with Conquistadors, but like yourselves I can't think of anything better. I know that the Spanish had a unit of 7,000 men called a 'taraco' or 'tarraco', and that it consisted of both pikemen and early musketmen called 'harquebusiers'. It was this infantry formation that was so feared during the 16th century when the Spanish empire was at its height. But that's all I know.

I agree that the Spanish introduced the horse to the New World, and this must have had a big impact on the Aztecs and Incas. There was also an early 16th century mounted tactic called the 'caracole'. Ths was a deep cavalry formation which would ride up to the enemy and fire off their pistols one rank at a time from horseback before wheeling away to reload.

So then, how about the Spanish UU being a Conquistador, which looks like a civ3 musketman on horseback (with brestplate and Spanish helmet) firing a pistol. The stats would be 5 attack, 3 defence, and a move of 2, with ZOC, requiring horses and saltpeter, and becomes available with Gunpowder. This would fit nicely between the Knight (4.3.2) and Cavalry (6.3.3).

But I still wish I could find more about the Spanish infantry of the 16th century.

 

[sgrig]

IMO, giving the Conquistador such a high attack rating would be unbalancing, attack of 4 or 3 should be enough. (Remember the Conquistadors were mainly used against pre-gunpowder enemies). Also since this unit replaces the musketman, it will be the main defensive unit, so its defense strength should be at least the same as that of the musketman, ie 4.

Actually what I would prefer it to be is a3/d4/m2 c6, requires iron, saltpeter, horses (maybe), so that its advantage over the French musketeer is not too great.

Btw, don't you think this thread goes into the Civ3 creation/customisation forum?

I think over there you would get more input.

 

[Shaka Naldur]

"the Tercios"

it was the strongest type of troop during the XVI century

i think somebody already made the unit in 3-D with animation

 

[yaroslav]

Yes, the infatry was named 'Tercios' and I think that these man must be the UU of your Spanish Civ.

If you want more information, try:

http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by sgrig
Btw, don't you think this thread goes into the Civ3 creation/customisation forum?
I think over there you would get more input.

You are quite right sgrig, this is NOT the right place to discuss new civ units. But I originally only wanted to gain information on Spanish units of the 16th century, so I thought that the World History forum would be the best place to ask (you get a more discerning type of fanatic here, as you have all proved!).

And it looks like I was right. That is an excellent link yaroslav. It's just what I wanted. Thanks again everybody.

(how a game based on world history can leave out the Spanish is beyond me!)

 

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Kryten


And it looks like I was right. That is an excellent link yaroslav. It's just what I wanted. Thanks again everybody.

You're wellcome. I will happy if I can help you in another way

 

[Kryten]

Cheers yaroslav, but I should be ok from here on. Even English history books have enough information about Spanish cities and great leaders! (and I'm not just talking about adventurers like Cortes and Pizarro, but more like Gonsalvo de Cordova).

Mind you, I wouldn't mind a few more great Spainish leaders....

 

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Kryten
Cheers yaroslav, but I should be ok from here on. Even English history books have enough information about Spanish cities and great leaders! (and I'm not just talking about adventurers like Cortes and Pizarro, but more like Gonsalvo de Cordova).

Mind you, I wouldn't mind a few more great Spainish leaders....

Well, in Spain we wrote 'Gonzalo de Cordoba'. Great general.
Other five greats leaders (in my opinion)

-Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar (El Cid)
-Alejandro Farnesio
-Duke of Alba (Well, a great militar leader, but very bloody)
-Juan de Austria
-Blas de Lezo (naval men)

And five famous kings

- Felipe II.
- Carlos, I of Spain and V of Germany.
- Fernando the Catholic King.
- Alfonso X, the wise men.
- Carlos III, the good mayor.

I can give you more leaders if you need them...
Pardon for my bad english

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Yaro, you left out my favorite Spanish Naval leader, El Cano, first man to circumnavigate the earth!

 

[Rowan]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Yaro, you left out my favorite Spanish Naval leader, El Cano, first man to circumnavigate the earth!

El Cano? On what ship did he sail,Please.
[dance] [dance]

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by Rowan


El Cano? On what ship did he sail,Please.
[dance] [dance]

Ah! This one I CAN answer!

"Juan Sebastian del Cano (1476-1526), Spanish navigator, born in Guetaria. In 1519 he was made captain of the 'Concepcion', one of the five vessels commanded by the Portuguese navigator Ferdinand Magellan during his expedition in the service of Spain. After the death of Magellan in 1521, Cano assumed command of the expedition. On September 6, 1522, he arrived in Spain on board the 'Victoria', becoming, with his crew, the first people to circumnavigate the earth in a single voyage. Cano died off the western coast of South America while in command of a subsequent expedition." --- quote from Encarta 98.

Thanks again yaroslav. And you are right, Spanish leaders SHOULD be called by their Spanish, and NOT English, names.

 

[donsig]

First unit that comes to my mind is a conquistador.

 

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Kryten

"Juan Sebastian del Cano (1476-1526), Spanish navigator, born in Guetaria. In 1519 he was made captain of the 'Concepcion', one of the five vessels commanded by the Portuguese navigator Ferdinand Magellan during his expedition in the service of Spain. After the death of Magellan in 1521, Cano assumed command of the expedition. On September 6, 1522, he arrived in Spain on board the 'Victoria', becoming, with his crew, the first people to circumnavigate the earth in a single voyage. Cano died off the western coast of South America while in command of a subsequent expedition." --- quote from Encarta 98.

Oh, yes. I wrote ten names that come first to my mind, some of them are not of the most important... ElCano was very important, and his voyage was heroic: only less than twenty people (I don't remember the exact number) return alive to Spain. One of the most important strees of my city is 'El Paseo de Juan Sebastian El Cano' and the ship 'Juan Sebastian El Cano' is one of the most important of the Spanish Navy.

 

[WarVoid]

Agree, I think of Conquistador. Although there was a Conquistador Infantry and Conquistador Cavalry, so that would be two units rather than one.

Another unit would be the Spanish Galleon, such as that which Columbus sailed in.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

If I recall correctly, Columbus' first voage was made in a Carrack, the "Santa Maria".

A good unit might be the Caravel Latina, or a Caravel Redonda, both remarkable ship types.

 

[Vrylakas]

I skimmed this discussion so far and haven't seen it - but do special units necessarily have to be land units? What about a galleon?