A question!?!?

[Phukit]

FoY is completely useless for capital, since it can't be worked and waste a hex. You're much better off to found first expo close to it. Krakatoa is pretty much hit or miss, most of the time it's in the middle of ocean and you can't really work it either. Even if you can work it, you need a large enough city to offset lack of food.

Im not sure how that makes FoY useless for the cap?
You are almost never going to be working every tile in your city radius anyways especially once you get specialists running.

early this can mean the ability to trade your last copy of a lux for some much needed gpt without crushing your happiness.

Seems to me not having to work the tile to get the bonus like other NWs is a pro not a con.

You can easily work krakatoa with a 4-5 pop city though i agree that the likelihood of it ever spawning in a useful place is slim to none.but this whole thread is a big what if.....

 

[Redaxe]

You can easily work krakatoa with a 4-5 pop city though i agree that the likelihood of it ever spawning in a useful place is slim to none.but this whole thread is a big what if.....

You can but I certainly wouldn't work Krakatoa with a capital city if your population was 4 or 5. The thing is growth is going to count a lot more towards science in the long run (even if you can't see all the benefits immediately).
Most of the Civ 5 guru's aim to get to 100bpt by turn 100. Krakatoa provides a measly 5bpt or 7.5 with a national college.
Even the it is still far worse than an academy because at least the academy can be planted on a grassland so it actually doesn't cost food to maintain. Krakatoa essentially costs you a minimum of 3 food (if you're not working the basic farmed grassland). But since krakatoa provides no food you are essentially costing yourself 5 food per turn just for a 5bpt return.
It would be nice if working it gave 1 great scientist point but eh i still think it's very bad (except for spain of course).

 

[BlackWizard]

early this can mean the ability to trade your last copy of a lux for some much needed gpt without crushing your happiness.

Seems to me not having to work the tile to get the bonus like other NWs is a pro not a con.

You dont need happiness before settling your second city. You can sell all your luxuries if you only have 1 city. If you need happiness before settling your second city you are doing something wrong

 

[Phukit]

You dont need happiness before settling your second city. You can sell all your luxuries if you only have 1 city. If you need happiness before settling your second city you are doing something wrong

Its really not hard to hit a couple of pop ruins on top of a good growth start to push towards early problems.especially when you have luxes that require techs from opposite ends of the tech tree.

For me potentially not having to deviate from my optimal tech path early just for lux techs is a big plus.

Also not having to worry about having the AI forward settling you and stealing it before you can get an expo there.

 

[Phukit]

You can but I certainly wouldn't work Krakatoa with a capital city if your population was 4 or 5. The thing is growth is going to count a lot more towards science in the long run (even if you can't see all the benefits immediately).
Most of the Civ 5 guru's aim to get to 100bpt by turn 100. Krakatoa provides a measly 5bpt or 7.5 with a national college.
Even the it is still far worse than an academy because at least the academy can be planted on a grassland so it actually doesn't cost food to maintain. Krakatoa essentially costs you a minimum of 3 food (if you're not working the basic farmed grassland). But since krakatoa provides no food you are essentially costing yourself 5 food per turn just for a 5bpt return.
It would be nice if working it gave 1 great scientist point but eh i still think it's very bad (except for spain of course).

While i agree that working it early in the cap would be sub-optimal,having it workable by the capital in time for unis/observatory can be a big chunk of your science.

I am willing to move for 2 turns in the beginning to be able to take advantage of this later as krakatoa is going to yield far less over time in an expo than in the capital.

 

[Blatc]

Its really not hard to hit a couple of pop ruins on top of a good growth start to push towards early problems.especially when you have luxes that require techs from opposite ends of the tech tree.

For me potentially not having to deviate from my optimal tech path early just for lux techs is a big plus.

Also not having to worry about having the AI forward settling you and stealing it before you can get an expo there.

I cannot imagine waiting so long to build my first settler that I run into happiness problems, for 2 reasons: I have at least +1 from wonders, which means unhappiness would require size 6-7, and there is extra incentive to get that first expo out to secure FOY, so I may start the settler earlier than normal. With your scenario of a good growth start and a couple pop ruins, I would definitely build the settler before a granary, so order would be something like scout, scout, monument, settler - realistically the capital would be at pop 4-5. If good pantheon, replace 2nd scout or monument with shrine.

 

[Phukit]

I cannot imagine waiting so long to build my first settler that I run into happiness problems, for 2 reasons: I have at least +1 from wonders, which means unhappiness would require size 6-7, and there is extra incentive to get that first expo out to secure FOY, so I may start the settler earlier than normal. With your scenario of a good growth start and a couple pop ruins, I would definitely build the settler before a granary, so order would be something like scout, scout, monument, settler - realistically the capital would be at pop 4-5. If good pantheon, replace 2nd scout or monument with shrine.

Realistically what turn are you getting your first settler out? T25 liberty? T30 tradition?

I wont move for most wonders but for the rarest and most OP wonder there is im moving the settler a few turns.

Then i dont have to worry about losing it,which will happen a ton on immortal and deity.esp deity with the extra settler.

I am not arguing the merits of wether to do so is optimal,because i dont care about optimal,i am much more interested in having a good time while winning than sacrificing my enjoyment to micromanage every last hammer gold or food i can just to win 20-30 turns sooner.

And wether it is optimal or not,moving a few turns to pick up FoY is never a mistake that breaks your game.

 

[Redaxe]

And wether it is optimal or not,moving a few turns to pick up FoY is never a mistake that breaks your game.

Yeah well FoY does have the advantage of getting its benefit without having to work the tile. That said I don't necessarily getting my first golden age too early. I prefer to have my expo's up and all at a population of at least 3-4 so I maximise the return on gold, culture and production.

 

[Blatc]

My main point is that any concern of getting into happiness issues when you've spotted the Fountain of Youth before settling your capital is ridiculous. You mentioned having a good growth start for your capital, but moving away from it to settle FOY. I'd suggest settling in the good growth area and putting expo on FOY.
BlackWizard is correct, "you dont need happiness before settling your second city."

 

[Sclb]

My main point is that any concern of getting into happiness issues when you've spotted the Fountain of Youth before settling your capital is ridiculous. You mentioned having a good growth start for your capital, but moving away from it to settle FOY. I'd suggest settling in the good growth area and putting expo on FOY.
BlackWizard is correct, "you dont need happiness before settling your second city."

Good, someone that agrees.

 

[beetle]

I am not arguing the merits of wether to do so is optimal,because i dont care about optimal,i am much more interested in having a good time while winning than sacrificing my enjoyment to micromanage every last hammer gold or food i can just to win 20-30 turns sooner.

This is my mindset. T0 NW being so rare, as I wrote earlier, I would move even for the worst ones.

I don't understand the rational to capture a poor NW with an expo. If it is so poor, why worry about capturing it early (if ever)? If it has no food yield, which I think we agree is the single most important aspect, then the burden to the cap is much less significant than to an expo. (But I guess if the 1st expo can start growing the same turn as the 2nd expo, then it is not a big deal?)

Working the worst of the NW just for early science or OWN to catch a religion makes perfect sense to me. But an expo will not grow while trying to do that early -- while your cap can spare the tile and not stall out completely. Plus, in OP scenario, the cap is available to do the heavy lifting 25+ turns earlier than an expo.

 

[Sclb]

Working the worst of the NW just for early science or OWN to catch a religion makes perfect sense to me. But an expo will not grow while trying to do that early -- while your cap can spare the tile and not stall out completely. Plus, in OP scenario, the cap is available to do the heavy lifting 25+ turns earlier than an expo.

Here's the reason, we almost always build NC in the capital, so growth, and therefore science in the capital is of utmost importance. One of the few wonders I would consider for capital would be GBR, Mt Kilimanjaro, Solomon's mine, etc. Also, when we spam settlers, capital will work probably only hammer tiles, thus not working NW (most of them anyway). It is much easier to have expos work wonders, due to not having to worry about growth as much, as their science contribution is much lower in the long run. If needed, caravan can fix their problems easily.

I try to play optimal unless when I've trying new strategies or have specifically non optimal personal rules designed to increase the fun factor. Even when I have rules, I play optimally while respecting the rules.

 

[Phukit]

This is my mindset. T0 NW being so rare, as I wrote earlier, I would move even for the worst ones.

I don't understand the rational to capture a poor NW with an expo. If it is so poor, why worry about capturing it early (if ever)? If it has no food yield, which I think we agree is the single most important aspect, then the burden to the cap is much less significant than to an expo. (But I guess if the 1st expo can start growing the same turn as the 2nd expo, then it is not a big deal?)

Working the worst of the NW just for early science or OWN to catch a religion makes perfect sense to me. But an expo will not grow while trying to do that early -- while your cap can spare the tile and not stall out completely. Plus, in OP scenario, the cap is available to do the heavy lifting 25+ turns earlier than an expo.

And specifically with wonders like FoY,Eldorado and GBR.....not only is the likelyhood of having any NW T0 about a 1/50 shot.....but these are arguably the 3 rarest wonders to see period.So i figure the odds of actually seeing those NW near the cap is probably 200-1 or greater.

I have only had FoY in 3 games.....and in only one of them was it in expo range nevermind the cap.

Seeing them everytime i hover over the cap and giggling my little nerd ass off is more than worth possibly playing sub-optimally.