A sewage treatment plant may be renamed after George W Bush

Would you vote to change its name to the George W Bush Sewage Treatment Plant?


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The commonly held belief that the war in Iraq has served as a massive recruitment poster for the terrorists not stick with you? You don't realize that Saddam was pretty anti-terrorist? Afghanistan, I can understand, but not Iraq. It's killing our country. But these "aggressive actions towards the enemy" are completely misdirected. In the war on terror, Iraq was not our enemy. We've found proof that Saddam refused to help various terrorist groups. Dragging us into a costly war in human life, stability, power, and money, is good?

What future events would those be?

Sorry for the thread-hijack.

Iraq is to be a democratic foothold for the inevitable and much harder campaigns against Iran, Syria and others. It's easier to turn Iraq into a functioning democracy then Afganistan because of it's oil wealth (it's military was also weakened from the last war and a case for war against Iran or Syria would have been harder at the time not to mention the war itself) and another democractic ally besides Israel will be needed if the larger war is to be won. At least this would be my plan because I don't see how you can fight Islamic extremism without turning the middle east into democractic nations. I would agree Saddam had no links to Al-qaeda but he did openly support terrorist actions against Israel and in recent years was hostile towards the west.

Anyway as I was saying Iraq is simply the first step in a long and tough campaign that can be won if the nations involved keep their resolve. In what I consider the greatest betrayal in our history my country has recently pulled troops out of Iraq and I feel dirty even thinking about the cowardice our newly elected left wing government has shown. America can't be expected to carry the burden alone and the lack of resolve from day one from western countries will be the reason for failure... at least in the short term. It wouldn't surprise me if future events increase the resolve of the west once people realise just how serious the threat is.
 
Iraq is to be a democratic foothold for the inevitable and much harder campaigns against Iran, Syria and others.

and is it with the will of the iraqi's, last time I heard the Iraqi government wants to diminish the role of the USA and try to get them back out of Iraq.
If the democratic government asks that, aren't you going to be an occupier and an oppressor for denying that question?

Besides, a war vs Iran, Syria,...Is the last thing this world needs with the rising oil prices. It's time to stop and rethink. Wrap up Afghanistan first and find Bin Laden.

Else it just seems as the USA is trying to colonise the ME.

It's easier to turn Iraq into a functioning democracy then Afganistan because of it's oil wealth (it's military was also weakened from the last war and a case for war against Iran or Syria would have been harder at the time not to mention the war itself) and another democractic ally besides Israel will be needed if the larger war is to be won.

and what if they don't want to go to war with you guys? How many shi'ite troops of Iraq will battle vs Iran?
At least this would be my plan because I don't see how you can fight Islamic extremism without turning the middle east into democractic nations.

The elections in Egypt, palestine and Algeria tend to disagree, what is there to be done when an radical muslim party wins the elections?

I would agree Saddam had no links to Al-qaeda but he did openly support terrorist actions against Israel and in recent years was hostile towards the west.
wow, that's no surprise.:rolleyes: Look at Saddam: First you get all the guns from the west to battle Iran, then you get a bit greedy and get your ass kicked but you still get a carte blanche for slaughtering the insurgents after the first gulf war and then when 50% of the country is a no-fly zone, you are being seen as a threat to world peace and everybody wants to find your non-existant nukes and then they invade you to make sure they find your non-existant nukes. And then they hang you and leak the video on youtube! Nuremberg 2 FTW
Anyway as I was saying Iraq is simply the first step in a long and tough campaign that can be won if the nations involved keep their resolve.

Never give up, never surrender, jeesh, you guys sticked with that for a long time in 'nam

In what I consider the greatest betrayal in our historyDRAMA my country has recently pulled troops out of Iraq and I feel dirty even thinking about the cowardice our newly elected left wing government has shown.

Don't worry, the 2000 australian troopers will still be handy in afghanistan and Samoa.

America can't be expected to carry the burden alone and the lack of resolve from day one from western countries will be the reason for failure... at least in the short term. It wouldn't surprise me if future events increase the resolve of the west once people realise just how serious the threat is.


Muslim fundementalism is a threat yes, especially for the muslims themselve. I think the way: make sure poeple don't become terrorist is more effective then: kill them all. and that's why i oppose an warmongering politics, it only is beneficial for the terrorists themselves, they thrive on chaos and what better chaos is there then war?

i typed "you guys" for Americans, i'm under the conviction you are an American in Australia. Or am I wrong here? If i am, ignore the "you guys" then :)
 
So your strategy would be to do next to nothing and hope for the best? How is that different to the strategy that lead to 9/11? Trying the same failed strategy and hoping for different results is insanity. Also I don't agree that Palastine has a functioning democracy or anything close to one (it's not stable enough for one currently) and Iraq is still a work in progress that is much more friendly towards the west and Israel then it was previously. Egypt and Algeria are hardly model democracies either but I would consider both countries to be among the most friendly towards Israel and the west anyway.

Being anti-war sounds good and I wish war was not ever necessary but the freedoms we enjoy today were not simply given to us, people fought and died for them and it will be the same in the middle east. Why wouldn't you want the people of the middle east to enjoy the same freedom you do? This kind of selfishness will lead to the wests demise. Oh and I'm 100% Australian so you don't have to continue with "you guys".
 
So your strategy would be to do next to nothing and hope for the best?

i didn't say that, I think it's about time we study what makes poeple terrorists (maybe poverty has something to do with it...;) ) and then try to battle that to win the hearts and minds of the population
How is that different to the strategy that lead to 9/11?

that was a fault of a sloppy internal security and the ignoring of several rapports about an impeding attack.
Trying the same failed strategy and hoping for different results is insanity.

you claim 9-11 happened becuase the western world did nothing? I'm sorry, but what would you have promoted then? Preemptive bombing of saudi-arabia?
Also I don't agree that Palastine has a functioning democracy or anything close to one (it's not stable enough for one currently)

i think if fatah would have won the elections, nobody western would have doubted the elections. Hamas won becuase they won the population over to their side. Now could you think of a reason why?
and Iraq is still a work in progress that is much more friendly towards the west and Israel then it was previously.

I think time will tell before you can say it will be a pro-western government. I think we are all going to be in for a surprise once the government has regained it's own souvereignity.

Egypt and Algeria are hardly model democracies either but I would consider both countries to be among the most friendly towards Israel and the west anyway.
yes, Dubai and Jordan are pro-western too but they are de facto dictatorships, but no-one seems to have a problem with that.
Being anti-war sounds good and I wish war was not ever necessary but the freedoms we enjoy today were not simply given to us, people fought and died for them and it will be the same in the middle east.

i still don't think it's the poeple in the middle-east who are a "threat to our freedom"
Why wouldn't you want the people of the middle east to enjoy the same freedom you do? This kind of selfishness will lead to the wests demise.

Have you been taking lessons from Ecofarm? Somehow being a pacifist always makes one a supporter of dictatorships. :rolleyes:
Oh and I'm 100% Australian so you don't have to continue with "you guys".

Ok, you are 100% australian.

noted. :)
 
After reading through the last handful of posts, I had to check the dates to make sure I wasn't reading a thread from 2003 or 2004.
 
After reading through the last handful of posts, I had to check the dates to make sure I wasn't reading a thread from 2003 or 2004.

Strangely enough I was against going to war with Iraq 2003 but I'm older and wiser these days :) Well not entirely since I would still probably argue against it if it were yet to happen but what is done is done and the plan needs to be followed through. It's not actually that bad a plan and probably better then doing nothing in retrospect.
 
This is just SF trying to get attention so they can pretend their still important.

Too petty for my tastes. And I could do without having any George W Bush signs/facilities in my city.

:lol: Enjoy living in your suburb.

San Jose's more populous than San Francisco, but neither one's important anymore. The East Bay is indisputably the most important part of the Bay Area.
 
Muslim fundementalism is a threat yes, especially for the muslims themselve. I think the way: make sure poeple don't become terrorist is more effective then: kill them all.
Fine and dandy. How do you prevent people from becoming terrorists?

How to prevent the Unabomber from becoming a terrorist? By rejecting modern technology. Which means no Internet, folks. Each of you who is reading this over an Internet connection, this very moment? You are all rejecting the Unabomber in your actions.

How to prevent Timothy McVeigh from becoming a terrorist? Prevent Waco and Ruby Ridge from happening (and the only way to prevent those would have been to allow fringe nutcases to practice whacked-out religions and own illegal firearms).

How to prevent radical Muslims from blowing you up? By becoming a devout Muslim.

How to prevent the L.A. Riots of....when was it, 1991??? Only way to prevent that would have been to void a jury trial.

And then, here's the big one. Why do most attacks against the U.S. take the form of terrorist attacks? Because attacking the U.S. openly would be suicidal. The only way to prevent this motivation is to disband our entire military and allow other nations to invade the U.S. in force. Not gonna happen. Ever.

Did you really think the world's wise men haven't been over this a million times already??? There IS no way to prevent terrorism. People resort to terrorism when the force of law, military, and morality prevent them from getting what they want any other way. When they want something your morality demands that you refuse, violence is inevitable.


Deal with it.
 
His point is that the invasion if Iraq was in no way effective in preventing terrorism.
 
San Jose's more populous than San Francisco, but neither one's important anymore. The East Bay is indisputably the most important part of the Bay Area.

Yeah because, you know, that 8.2 billion we made last year from tourism alone is just so... insignificant :lol:
 
Fine and dandy. How do you prevent people from becoming terrorists?

How to prevent the Unabomber from becoming a terrorist? By rejecting modern technology. Which means no Internet, folks. Each of you who is reading this over an Internet connection, this very moment? You are all rejecting the Unabomber in your actions.

How to prevent Timothy McVeigh from becoming a terrorist? Prevent Waco and Ruby Ridge from happening (and the only way to prevent those would have been to allow fringe nutcases to practice whacked-out religions and own illegal firearms).

How to prevent radical Muslims from blowing you up? By becoming a devout Muslim.

How to prevent the L.A. Riots of....when was it, 1991??? Only way to prevent that would have been to void a jury trial.

And then, here's the big one. Why do most attacks against the U.S. take the form of terrorist attacks? Because attacking the U.S. openly would be suicidal. The only way to prevent this motivation is to disband our entire military and allow other nations to invade the U.S. in force. Not gonna happen. Ever.

Did you really think the world's wise men haven't been over this a million times already??? There IS no way to prevent terrorism. People resort to terrorism when the force of law, military, and morality prevent them from getting what they want any other way. When they want something your morality demands that you refuse, violence is inevitable.


Deal with it.

Ah yes, your usual drivel. Kinda funny though. :)

Take this into account, a lack of women, a lack of work, a lack of relative wealth, frustration and how things seem to fail around them.

Of course such countries are a breeding ground for terrrorists.

Ask yourself: why are there so many suicide terrrorists coming from yemen, oman and saudi-arabia, and so few from Jordan?

Your drivel looks at the situation one-dimensial and that's why it's prone to failure. Your pre-emptive conclusions fail btw, and most of your post is a base for building strawmen.

and another thing: the muslim population is over 1 billion, let's say globally 1 out of a 100 is a terrorist or has the potential to. How long do you think it takes for the USA to kill 10 million poeple? How many innocents die in the meantime?

By breaking down social injustice and increasing the wealth of the ME citizens, terrorism can have some serious blows.
 
But what's so wrong with a sewage treatment plant anyway. The organic part of the sewage sludge can burned to produce energy that can replace coal. In addition, methane emissions, which are more dangerous than carbon dioxide, can be avoided.

Such plants often fall prey to enviromentalists, since they use waste for something useful, rather than preventing it's formation, which is what you should do according to green dogma. Nevertheless it's a good way to prevent carbon dioxide emissions.
 
Iraq is to be a democratic foothold [bla bla bla... the usual crap]

In what I consider the greatest betrayal in our history my country has recently pulled troops out of Iraq and I feel dirty even thinking about the cowardice our newly elected left wing government has shown.

Oh, don't worry, I'm sure your left-wing government will at least keep invading its immediate neighbors just like the previous one did, and lending a hand in toppling democratically-elected government whenever Australia's oil interests are at stake. :mad:

They're just saving resources, why help the americans grab Middle East oil when they have it available just by the Australian coast, and just have to overpower a much weaker state to get it?
 
toppling democratically-elected government whenever Australia's oil interests are at stake.

Afghan or Iraq? Iran :eek: ? Hitler, who? What democratic regimes are getting toppled? And don't give me a bunch of c. and s. american red-army crap either. Power to the contras; die commie sandinistas. Chavez is a commie bastard the likes of which few compare... like... Carter... Castro... All begin with C's... koincidence? Just to be safe we should pretty much wipe everything out that starts with a C and maybe K.
 
Afghan or Iraq? Iran :eek: ? Hitler, who? What democratic regimes are getting toppled? [rambling...]

I was answering an Australian. Don't worry, he knows which country I was talking about, it's one of those listed in the autralian governments own "Pacific 2020 challenges and opportunities for growth".

Papua New Guinea and Fiji are the major mineral-mining countries in the Pacific, and together hold significant reserves of nickel, gold, silver, copper and iron. Phosphate strip mining was significant in the past, but with poor regard for its impacts. Banaba Island was destroyed and two-thirds of the island of Nauru was left a wasteland. The first mine in Solomon Islands, Gold Ridge, is likely to have a marked impact on the national economy when it is reopened.
Vanuatu has issued several exploration permits, although no mining has yet occurred. Papua New Guinea and East Timor have significant oil and gas resources, and the World Bank sees some potential for offshore oil and gas development in Fiji and Palau.

(actually make that two... a certain archipelago also)

Funny how the timely "instability" in East Timor has allowed Australia not only to safeguard its deal with Indonesia from the 1970s, but also eventually led to the opening of East Timor's oil fund. The law that created the oil fund (one more of those swf) specifically allows investments in US$ denominated, Aa3, or better, rated bonds. So far they had only bought US treasuries (perhaps not that bright, with a falling dollar, but at least reasonably safe). Now the australian branch of JP Morgan has finally sunk its claws on the fund, and will manage the $2.9 billion... I hope they'll be closely watched, but 'm just waiting for the news about how "unanticipated market situations" have made most the money vanish! :rolleyes:
 
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