A story about "The British Empire"...

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Originally posted by SKILORD
1st of all I cannot BELEIVE that someone would start it up again... x-rang did a masterful job of switching the conversation.

Now for your point..... i agree completely. Twere the earth a galactic eyelash's length closer or further away from the sun live as we know it couldn't exist at all. another point, virtually all life on Earth is dependent upon each other, look at plants and animals, they make oxygen for us we make CO2 for them. insects + flowers? sharks + those little sucky things that stick to their chests( whatever their called)?parasites and hosts how did parasites that mostly feed off humans evolve and thrive before humans? you could say about us and the plants that plants came first = made the atmosphere full of Oxygen so we could evolve but as the little algea that (if evolution were right) evolved first are the top oxygen producing/carbon consuming plants on this earth( if i'm wrong it's my Biology teacher's fault) they would have suffocated LONG before anything large enough to make up for their OXY/CO2 process could have evolved. how did plants and bee's come together? did plkants get their pollon out some other way and then bees came along and little Mr. angiospore decided "Well you know what? lemme go and become dependent upon this little creature for the survival of my species" does this seem like survival of the fittest to you?

I really hate to bring this up on a thread where peacful relations seem to have been reestablished, but I have to point out some flaws in your logic. Here are the problems with your arguments, in no particular order.
As concerns the evolution of human parasites. There are two possible methods by which they have evolved. Which is true likely dependant on the parasites. One, they could have evovled concurrently with us. A parasite that infected a proto-human could adapt to a human body environment with little difficulty. After all our DNA is 98% similar to that of a chimp, so virtually all of our internal processes are the same. And btw whoever up there said our DNA also 90% similar to an amoeba is just plain wrong. Primitive eukaryotes like amoebae have genomes consisting of at best a few thousand genes while the human genome consists of nearly 40,000. Even if all of those genes were identical, which they are not (though some genes are that highly conserved....yes, there is good deal molecular evidence for the theory of evolution, beyond the substantial fossil evidence) that is more like 10% than 90.
Another way that human parasites, as well as diseases could evolve is through our interaction with animals. Any organsim which could pass from livestock to humans and be adaptable enough to survive would occupy a new ecological niche, and hence have a selective advantage, causing it to proliferate.
A similar story can be put forth with animal pollinated plants. Plants can also pollinate themselves by wind,and many still do so exclusively. Others however can spread their pollen farther by attaching it to animals, like birds, or bees, which come to feed on their nectar. Again we see natural selection at work, in the fact that windy areas tend to be dominated by wind-pollinated plants, while less windy areas favor the animal-pollinated.
As to the evolution of the photosynthesis/oxygen respiration cycle, I frankly don't know. I'm not an evolutionary biologist. I would suspect that yes, algae and other photosynthetic lifeforms were responsible for creating the oxygen atmosphere, which then created a niche for lifeforms that could respire oxygen, who quickly adapted to fill that niche. I may be dead wrong about that. I don't know. Nobody knows for sure because we weren't there, although I'm sure an evolutionary biologist could provide a more convincing explanation. The point is, there's often a reasonable explanation for phenomena out there if you take the time to think it out logically and don't just leap to chalk it up to God. I know religion must be a comforting thing, because with it one always has an explanation for everything in life. Like Fox, I often wish I could bring myself to look at the world that simply but I find I can't. At the dawn of civilization we just chalked everything up to God or gods, but as time passes we abandon those obsolete beliefs in the face of overwhelming empirical evidence. Cases in point.... The world is round, it revolves around the sun, maggots come from flies, and are not spontanteously generated.......the list goes on.
Ok this is one hell of a long post. I'll shut up now.
 
i don't feel like arguing right now but it's impolite to call peoples beleifs obsolete. and i'm sorry about the Ameboa thing.. i could have sworn. i now confesss that they were right... it does go on and on. do you have a rebuttal for my carbon dating arguements(look on Pg 2) or will they become the core of my arguement now?

either way i want the peace and calm back, xrang do your stuff, get us into Playstations again.
 
I feel called to add my take to this discussion:

First of all, on topic, I haven’t seen a culture win by the A.I. so the story was certainly enlightening. In my style of play I have always built lots of culture improvement (even in CIV and CIV2) to keep the population happy so I can’t imagine falling that far behind in culture.

In the God vs. agnostic debate I have to weigh in as one of those Jesus Freaks that some of those who have identified themselves as Christians are so quick to distinguish themselves from (see 1 John 5:2). But I have confidence that I can explain in a scientific manner why I believe that The Bible is error free and the notion that the Christian God of The Bible must exist as it is the most rational explanation of creation.

I only enter this debate because I admire all the other posters who have managed to keep this discussion civil even when baited. I usually adhere to Jesus’ instruction not to cast pearls before swine (Matt 7:6), but I also take Grey Fox’s statement “I hope I could be satisfied with one of the religious beliefs out there” to mean that he is an honest seeker of the truth (Matt 7:7 & Pro 1:28). And scripture says that those who honestly seek Him will find Him. I also recognize that if I had been presented with The Truth in the manner that some on this thread have presented it, I probably would have remained an unbeliever even longer than the 32 years that I was.

Before I go on with some additional discussions I would like to recommend the ministry of Chuck Missler www.khouse.org as someone who can teach the Bible in a manner that recognizes scientific facts and yet understands that the Bible is inerrant. His secular credentials are impeccable: for the commercial civs out there, he led Western Digital out of bankruptcy. For the Militaristic, he is a graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy. And, according to a critic's website, for the scientific, he is one of the early engineering pioneers of Stealth technology. I describe him as having a ministry speaking to engineers and scientists – check out the site, there is a tremendous amount of free information there. I would also point you to Ray Comfort’s The Evidence Bible (www.theevidencebible.com) where many critical objections are honestly addressed – this site is free as well.

Grey Fox (I was hoping that you chose your name from the movie) I think that you are fundamentally correct in many of your assumptions and underlying beliefs. I actually agree with more of your statements than of any other poster on this thread. In fact I agree with your signature statement, that: “To believe in a God is to disbelieve in the creativity and intelligence of the human race.” The way God revealed Himself to me was by removing my faith in the creativity and intelligence of the human race (See 1 Cor. 1:18 – 2:14) and by simultaneously showing me that His Truth is correct even when examined with human intelligence. (Interesting paradox that would make a lengthy tangent.)

I also think that The Matrix is a great example of how our reality coexists with the spiritual plane. However, I try not to take this analogy too far (as you might well imagine) because on the spiritual plane we are not simply slaves to another’s will. This brings me to what I think is your biggest misconception about God – you have the belief that He would be simply a puppeteer. This is wrong, in summation, using a Chuck Missler statement “He can’t make you love Him.” I know that I have left out some logical connections in my leap to my closing statement, but I am trying to keep this as brief as possible.

G’Fox you are again entirely correct when you say that if one believes in evolution that there must be no God. In that respect my Brother, PreTzel_22 is incorrect, I would point him to Exodus 20:11 where in the Hebrew the word used is explicitly a day as commonly used: As in “For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth…”

As a brief aside, just to wet the seeker's appetite: a provocative conjecture on the 6 days of creation has to do with the theory that the speed of light is slowing down but that is a very lengthy discussion and is obviously only conjecture. Yet this is one example of how The Bible’s truth might be able to point us to a new scientific discovery (in the history of science there are numerous examples of this type of discoveries resulting from this sort of Biblical revelation).

I would also challenge any Christian who says that they also believe in the Big Bang and/or Darwin’s Evolutionary Theory of the Origin of Man to do a little more research on the topic with the material of someone like Chuck Missler. Believing that the universe was created in a Big Bang (“First there was nothing and then it exploded”) and that life could be created by accident can’t help but undermine your faith in The Bible and will subsequently undermine your reliance on the promises of God.

Two quick statements on other topics that perhaps should be addressed: it was Science that taught that the earth was flat; the Catholic Church was the establishments enforcement mechanism; The Bible always taught that the earth was round: (Isaiah 40:22 “It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth.”) and that it “hangs […] upon nothing (Job 26:7).

Also, the pat answer to G’Fox’s question of similar DNA is that all life forms had the same designer who reused his code.

Enuf for now,

In His Love,
Gscott

Mundus vult decipi; ergo decipiatur."
The World wants to be deceived; let it therefore be deceived.
 
you have good Idea's but think about it what is the chance that we were created by chance I have got many reasons and not much time so if you want to debate my msn name is cegman@hotmail.com
 
Well, I think Gscott summed that up. Chuck Missler, very interesting... i've got an idea: let's just drop the subject. can we delete threads? if so let's.:lol: um... maybe AOL or somewhere there's a chat room for this. Maybe you guys can talk about it there....in response to SKILORD, has anyone played Maximo for the PS2? of Final Fantasy X. The PS2 ROCKS, X-BOX is now X-FLOP and the Gamecube is now the um...well.:rolleyes: :mad: :cry: you know.........(?):p
 
well said gscott...


i've played final fantasy X at a freinds house... it does rock.

don't diss on the G-cube.... i.... i.... have one(head kinda drops starts looking emberassed) the X-box though..... :nuke:
 
Well,

I've enjoyed both the story and the subsequent discussions.

I, like everyone else, have my own opinions on the second, but I'll save them as the topic needs to be dropped..
:rolleyes:

I, unfortunately, can't relate on the x-box etc front as I have none of these toys.. just me and my PC

:)

Looking forward to the next story..
 
I want to thank Gscott for his post, my most sincere gratitudes to you! It was a great joy to read!

Well going back to the Console Discussion.

I have a PS2 with one of my co-students, and we are thinking about buying a Gamecube...

I'm going to buy MGS2 and FFX when they come to Sweden. In Mars and April.

I'm also looking forward to Tekken 4, seems like a worthy sequel.

Great discussion everybody, but let us end this once and for all!

I think I defended my beleifs very well...
 
Haven't played any of the FF games beyond number 7 when it came out for PC. I would like to though. Have been a fan since #1 on the NES. No X-box, gamecube, or PS for me unfortuantely, just have a PC and good old N64 (007 RULES!!!)

As for the other topic, I'm ok with dropping it for now. Just want to sincerely apologize to Skilord and anyone else I may have offended with the obsolesance comment. I really didn't mean it quite the way it sounded. My intent was to correct misinformation, not dump on peoples beliefs, and again I'm sorry.

In closing, I'd just like to say. "Holy Crap!!! The AI got a cultural victory!?!?!"
 
Originally posted by DamnCommie
In closing, I'd just like to say. "Holy Crap!!! The AI got a cultural victory!?!?!"

Yea, that's because they got at least 10-15 Wonders in their Capital... resulting in a 20,000 C.point city. Very Annoying.
 
The X-BOX isn't a bad console, it's probably the "most powerful' on on the market. But when all is said and done the X-BOX has like no real KILLER games! And that's why I failed to make fun of the Gamecube because even though I don't have it, the games that are out or coming out are pretty awesome. The X-BOX will have MGS2, sure, but after every PS2 owner already played it...:vomit:...and where's FINAL FANTASY X, XI, and XII? "UMmmm...PS2?":D...Halo's coming out for PC, so...WHERE'S THE GAMES?:confused: (no offense)
 
Sorry to re-open this discussion but I feel no-one has actually mentioned the prime objection to the design argument that is being bandied about: however unlikely the evolution of an intelligent species is, it is bound to happen somewhere in the universe. Additionaly, according to the many universes theory, whenever there is a chance of something happening, it splits into several universes, with some of them being ones where it does happen and some not.
To say that the bible is inerrant is, IMO, quite ridiculous. Which bible? There are many translations. How do you know your chosen one is any more accurate than the next? And there is no reason to believe that the bible contains any more truth than any other book.
If you claim something exists, the burden of proof is on you. Until there is evidence, then by default there is no God just as there are no unicorns. I am atheist for the same reason as I am aunicornist.
 
WOW! you've got to have.....
The roman catholic church doesn't see any conflict between the theory of evolution. and no one here should be putting other faiths down. and why did you bring this back up? i thought we were done....:crazyeyes let's hols a private chat sometime...(maybe....):rolleyes:
 
Why is pointing out logical flaws in someones argument considered putting down their faith? And I know about the Catholic church's position viz a viz evolution, as I used to be one.
 
wow, i'm soooo glad you too have the ability toi point out the 'logical flaws' in one's arguement. thnk you very very much for enlightening us...would you like a medal? i think i can send one overnight...the conversation is done, don't jump in because you're too late. THIS IS CIVLIZATION! NOT A CHAT ROOM FOR EVOLUTION!:mad: STOP IT!:nuke:
 
then why was that statement made in the first place? But I agree that Civfanatics is no the place to discuss this kind of thing so I will not continue this discussion as long as no-one else does.
 
Ratz, too late to join in the theology?

Read this (in Stephen Hawkings' book I think): How could it be we live on this planet, just the right distance from the sun, just the right mizture of gases, just the right amount of ozone to bloack some but not all of the UV rays...so on so forth. What are the astonomically small chances that we live on such a planet?

Answer was: Because, if we didn't live on a planet with all those attributes, we would never reach the point where we could ask these questions! If we lived in Alpha Centauri (fun game btw) you could ask the same thing, just substituting Planet for Earth.

I myself feel religion and science don't have to clash. Einstein and Newton believed in God. Einstein said, "God does not play dice." Can't remember what it meant, but maybe it means God is Lawful, not Neutral or Chaotic Good?

PS. Don't kill me. Whoever.
 
nice touch...and let's not forget that in science there are two commonly used words. one of them is 'law' (usually followed by 'of'), the other one is 'theory' (again usually followed by 'of'). It's the 'theory of evolution' not the 'law of evolution'. it's not the 'theory of motion', it's the 'law of motion'. I'm not saying we didn't evolve its just that it hasn't been proven 'yet'.let's not forget, nowhere in the Bible does it say the world began 6000 years ago, some english bishop did.


Lemaître, Georges, Abbé
1894–1966, Belgian astrophysicist, mathematician, and Catholic priest. In 1927 he became professor of astrophysics at the Univ. of Louvain and proposed the big-bang theory to help link Einstein’s relativity theory to the observed evidence of an expanding universe. He also did research on cosmic rays and the three-body problem. His works include Discussion sur l’évolution de l’univers (1933) and L’Hypothèse de l’atome primitif (1946).
...:goodjob: :o
 
The last part is all messed. Who are you referring to?

How come Einstein's Something isn't part of the Great Wonders?

Or Stephen Hawkings...
 
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