Resource icon

A strategy guide to winning noble

JujuLautre

Deity
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
3,112
Location
Kansai, Japan
JujuLautre submitted a new resource:

A strategy guide to winning noble - A strategy guide to winning noble

Why this guide ?

My first reason is simple: there are so many people in the forum wanting to beat higher level, especially noble, and unable to beat it. I want to answer to them with this document. Long-time posters know that there already exists a very good guide for beginners (Sisiutil's strategy guide for beginners), guide which I personally read multiple times already some time ago. However, even if there are many good informations in it, Sis does not teach his readers...

Read more about this resource...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

cabert

Big mouth
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
7,710
Location
France
your guide cruelly lacks pictures
(I won't mention typos, but if you make another version, you could remove a few :p)
Illustration I think would be usefull :
1) the big fat cross


A few things that don't seem right:
2.4 First builds in the capital
- you don't mention workboats. If you're coastal and start with fishing and there is seafood, you clearly want fishing boats (or at least 1 while you grow to size 2)! You somewhat cover this in 6.5, but you should at least mention it here too (maybe as a link to 6.5)
- you don't mention fogbusting duty for your numerous warriors
- you say size 5, like this would be a magical number. I guess your saying this because of happiness, but it could well be that you could grow further than this. (check my signature for more on this).
I didn't read further for now, but it's quite a good idea.
 

JujuLautre

Deity
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
3,112
Location
Kansai, Japan
Thanks Cabert for your comments; I think I forgot you in the thanks btw :)

your guide cruelly lacks pictures
Yeah, I know that one; I plan to include some, but it takes time ;(
More specifically, I'd like to include a walkthrough, with screenshots and stuffs; thanks for the idea of the BFC

A few things that don't seem right:
2.4 First builds in the capital
- you don't mention workboats. If you're coastal and start with fishing and there is seafood, you clearly want fishing boats (or at least 1 while you grow to size 2)! You somewhat cover this in 6.5, but you should at least mention it here too (maybe as a link to 6.5)
Thanks for the remark

- you don't mention fogbusting duty for your numerous warriors
I think I do, but perhaps I could make it more clear

- you say size 5, like this would be a magical number. I guess your saying this because of happiness, but it could well be that you could grow further than this. (check my signature for more on this).
I didn't read further for now, but it's quite a good idea.
Yeah, somehow; but I prefer to give some more strict "rules" that people can follow, instead of things like "you could grow more, chose for yourself"; this is for people who do not master the game after all ;)

The last game I tried, even with all the automation and stuff, I was rolling on the AI at a point it was not even funny :p
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Messages
3,663
1) Find a proofreader who is a native speaker. Right now, you are frequently derailing your audience with hints that you are writing in your third (second? fourth? Nth?) language; the broken flow interferes with the message.

The writing style also suggests that you are about 10 years younger than your reported age. If that's a choice, it's a valid one - but I wouldn't want my writing to be ten years younger than I am, and I am much older than you (I reserve the right to change my mind when my mid-life crisis hits).

2) I think you need to be clearer on what you are trying to achieve with this. It mostly reads as though it is trying to be a script for winning a game on noble - nothing wrong with that as a goal, but I don't think you are quite succeeding.

My suspicion is that you don't have a clear picture in your head of your intended audience - that is, what they understand prior to reading your guide, and where you intend for them to arrive.

My recommendation would be to insert a section prior to 1.2 describing who the guide is for. Has that person played before? won a game at any level? which victory conditions have they tried? What parts of the game are they good at? Which other guides have they read?

You should probably keep in mind that, given where you are publishing the guide, your audience is not as general as it might be.

3) You really need a strategic summary before getting into the nitty gritty of the opening. I think that section should break your approach out into its main phases, in each giving the central idea ("we're settling new cities"), a rough time line, and maybe a goal. Now your reader has context for the elements that you are going to describe.

4) For the parts that you don't want to write about, you should probably refer the reader to other articles that cover the topic. There is value in teaching the reader what other guides are out there, and what sorts of things they are useful for.

5) A lot of the advice is very vague, especially considering the likely audience. It feels to me as though many of the paragraphs identify some choice, and then announce that the reader should do the right thing. How does that help them?

To pick an example at random: When you can, trade resources with the AI: do it with leaders whom you know will be reliable. Is it even remotely plausible that a reader, trying to beat noble for the first time, will have any sense for which leaders are reliable?
 

JujuLautre

Deity
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
3,112
Location
Kansai, Japan
Thank you VoU for your suggestions and comments. I'll do my best to include them while trying to improve the quality of this guide :)

I must say I am a little bit sad to hear your comment about my English; I know it's not good, but I did not think it was *that* bad... Do you have examples in mind of things which "break the flow" ?

Also, I am a little bit puzzled by your comment about the writing style; I would be happy to hear more about it, but perhaps in MP, I do not think here is the real place for that
 

yanner39

Emperor
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
1,384
Location
Ottawa, Canada
Thank you VoU for your suggestions and comments. I'll do my best to include them while trying to improve the quality of this guide :)

I must say I am a little bit sad to hear your comment about my English; I know it's not good, but I did not think it was *that* bad... Do you have examples in mind of things which "break the flow" ?

Also, I am a little bit puzzled by your comment about the writing style; I would be happy to hear more about it, but perhaps in MP, I do not think here is the real place for that

JujuLautre,

I am still a novice at this game and still learning. What I appreciated about your article was that it gave me a clearer picture as to how I should start. Also, it forced me to re-examine how I do things. For example, happyness has always been an issue for me. Yet, I never even bothered to tech monarchy to switch to the heredity rules civic. Each game I started, I had a clear path of Techs and civics to use and I never changed that path. I mean, I never changed civis until I could get the one I wanted (ie Universal Suffrage)

Your article forced me to change how I did things at first. Another example, is fogbusting. I would send my warrior in one direction only. But circling the city is a good idea, one which I never thought of.

There is a bunch on stuff I will use that will improve my game.

Anyways, for a player like me with less experience, I thought it was very good.
 

Stewie0416

Who Cares?
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
680
Location
USA
I thought it was very nice. Grammar could be better but lets remember, its probably not his native language. I thought you did a very nice job. Learned a few things too!:goodjob:
 

cabert

Big mouth
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
7,710
Location
France
jujulautre don't be disappointed
If you read VoU's articles, you will se how very precise he likes articles.
It's true that your article isn't very clear in its goal, and it's also true that you should have pointed to more detailled articles, but the "recipe-like" approach you have is certainly something that was lacking.
Conclusion : improve your article ;)
 

JujuLautre

Deity
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
3,112
Location
Kansai, Japan
Don't worry about that cabert; I do not intend to let go everything ;)
I am working on it now, but it takes some time in the middle of my work, that's all.

As for yanner39 and Stewie0416, happy to read it has taught you something :)
 

yanner39

Emperor
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
1,384
Location
Ottawa, Canada
JujuLautre,

Could you elaborate on section 6.4 Slavery. Maybe just explain more in detail as to why not to make a a 1-population whip and;

not to whip more than 2 happy citizens at a time and;

not to whip without a granary in the city.

In my case, the only time I whip is when I am over the happyness cap by 1 and whip the unhappy citizen to get under the cap. Is that wrong? I understand that the fact that I am over the cap is because I neglected to check my cities more often. I usually use the whip to fix that. Not good?

Thanks
 

cabert

Big mouth
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
7,710
Location
France
JujuLautre,

Could you elaborate on section 6.4 Slavery. Maybe just explain more in detail as to why not to make a a 1-population whip and;

not to whip more than 2 happy citizens at a time and;

not to whip without a granary in the city.

In my case, the only time I whip is when I am over the happyness cap by 1 and whip the unhappy citizen to get under the cap. Is that wrong? I understand that the fact that I am over the cap is because I neglected to check my cities more often. I usually use the whip to fix that. Not good?

Thanks
you seem to forget that you get 1 unhappy for every whip
 

JujuLautre

Deity
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
3,112
Location
Kansai, Japan
Hum, no...I usually only whip to get rid of the unhappy citizen.

Thanks for the reply, but you haven't really answered my question.

If you whip for one pop to get rid of an unhappy citizen, that is indeed wrong: as cabert said, there is a penalty for whipping, and that is an unhappy face for 10 turns. So you lose one unhappy (the citizen) and gain one (the penalty of whipping), all in all, you just lost one pop.

That explains the 1-pop whip. The granary is necessary to get the best rate of conversion food/hammer (gives you double the hammers basically, since you need two times less food to regrow). I will not get into details into the explanation, there are many threads about that in the forum.

As for the two citizens rule, it's not a good one for sure, but I just wanted to give a simple rule that beginners could use, the idea being "do not whip too many citizens working cottages". If you want to optimize your whipping, that is obviously the first rule to discard :)

-- now still working on the article, I hope I can get a second version before my holidays.
 

yanner39

Emperor
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
1,384
Location
Ottawa, Canada
If you whip for one pop to get rid of an unhappy citizen, that is indeed wrong: as cabert said, there is a penalty for whipping, and that is an unhappy face for 10 turns. So you lose one unhappy (the citizen) and gain one (the penalty of whipping), all in all, you just lost one pop.

That explains the 1-pop whip. The granary is necessary to get the best rate of conversion food/hammer (gives you double the hammers basically, since you need two times less food to regrow). I will not get into details into the explanation, there are many threads about that in the forum.

As for the two citizens rule, it's not a good one for sure, but I just wanted to give a simple rule that beginners could use, the idea being "do not whip too many citizens working cottages". If you want to optimize your whipping, that is obviously the first rule to discard :)

-- now still working on the article, I hope I can get a second version before my holidays.

Thanks JujuLautre.

I get it for the Granary. Makes sense.

I thought sacrificing a unhappy citizen was good. I believe I read that in Sisiutil's beginner's guide. I understand that you have an unhappy face for 10 turns. But I know in some of the games I played, when I I had a +unhappy citizen of 1 and I whipped, I had no more unhappyness. Which is why I thought this strategy was fine.

Just to clarify. When you whip an unhappy citizen, you lose him for good (essentially kill him) not just lose him for 10 turns, correct?
 

JujuLautre

Deity
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
3,112
Location
Kansai, Japan
Just to clarify. When you whip an unhappy citizen, you lose him for good (essentially kill him) not just lose him for 10 turns, correct?

Right

It could be that the balance was fine in the end if:
- you reduced at the same time some other factor of unhappiness (like emancipation penalty or war weariness - both dependent on population size)
- you build at the same time a buiding providing happiness, or a unit under hereditary rule
 

Continental Op

Warlord
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
242
Thank you, JujuLautre, for a great article.

I myself am a quite new player in BtW, although I have played a bit with the basic Civ4 (with Noble). My problem has always been what to build, where to build cities etc. and my solution to this has been to pretty much automate everything and build what the computer suggests. Although I have won this way on Noble a couple of times, I usually get wiped out before the 17th century.

My strong points are warring and diplomacy skills, both of whom don't help much if you are really backwards compared to the AI´s. So it bugs me that I seldom get a chance of using them.

So I foud your article and decided to give it a go. I did´t even read the whole thing at first, just a little bit in between game sessions. And of course I couldn´t use it as a walkthrough that way, but still... I chose to start with Hannibal, and I was sceptical at first, because the start was slow. But as the game advanced, I did get the upper hand and got my chance to hone my diplomacy skills, that I like to use stirring things up and create confusion. And indeed, I never once got attacked by anyone, even though I had neigbours like Monty and Stalin. In the end Monty was quite pleased with me even though I had taken one of his cities by force. And everyone was in war with everyone, except me.

Well, I didn´t quite win (maybe I should have read the whole article first). But it wasn´t far - I had already launched my spaceship and just a couple of turns away from victory, when Stalin won by time. But the game was fun and exciting to the end. Now I have started a new with Qin.
 

Supr49er

2011 Thunderfall Cup
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Messages
3,603
Location
Bear Flag Republic
The more games you play, the more you'll learn - and the more you see you still need to learn!

Welcome to the Forums Continental Op. :beer:
 

cracked

Wierdo.
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
338
Not a bad general guide for noble. I guess some of the ideas you promote aren't entirely useful for difficult situations and seem a little unimaginative. Still, it's for newbies so not too bad.
 
Top Bottom